410 Build up - Questions and Research.

[ScotiaFE]

I noticed you said $100 to neutral balance your flywheel.
I strongly recommend you buy a new steel 390/427 flywheel.
If this is an old cast flywheel from 50 years ago it is best used as a door stop now. jmho

I believe Survival can throw a Ford racing flywheel in the box for a modest price. and it will
be much safer than a used old cast flywheel that has had holes drilled in it.

[Yellow Truck]

Howie,

That is a good suggestion - but I bought a McLeod fly wheel when I put this engine in 4 years ago. If my buddy buys the crank he will probably want the flywheel as well, and rather than balance that one and buy a new Detroit balanced for his build, I'll probably let him have the McLeod and get Barry to sell me a new one.

[Yellow Truck]

I have the blocks back from the machine shop. I swapped my 410 rotating assembly and block for my buddy's virgin 390 plus a few bucks. He will put it back together with a little freshening and more cam, and I'm going down the stroker path. Here is what I have on this block:

• It was left outside for a decade, but it was cleaned, bead blasted, and magna-fluxed and came up good
• It needs to be bored 20 over, for a 4.07 bore
• It needs to be align honed
• The deck heights are 10.191 and 10.186 on one side, and 10.177 and 10.178 on the other. It needs to be decked because it was rusty, assume final deck height will be 10.175 to 10.170

The machinist has been doing this for over 40 years, has done quite a few FEs, and has the torque plates (in fact, won't bore or hone without them). I'm confident he knows what he is doing.

I am curious how common it is for a block to measure with a taller deck height than the stock 10.17?

Now, since the FE Reunion and Race will be over next week, perhaps I can get someone at Survival on the phone and place an order. I'm going stroker kit, heads, hydraulic roller cam and lifters, (I have a Street Dominator intake), new rocker assembly, bolts and studs as appropriate, plus the usual assortment of bits that a 45 year old engine needs (damper, spacer,etc.).

I have a few questions for Barry and this community:

• One of my buddies suggested that you can't spin a 4.25 stroke that hard. I've been reading and everything I've read suggests that with a 6.7 inch rod 6,000 is not a concern. Am I right?
• Survival has normal and limited travel hydraulic roller lifters, is there a downside to using the limited travel ones? I assume they allow higher RPM operation.
• I have a stock distributor with a Petronix Ignitor system and a Flame Thrower coil. I'd rather not throw more money on a new distributor this year, what is the limit imposed by the older style distributor?
• For the strongest street engine I can run on 91 or 93 octane (and at 3,500 feet elevation), what is the CR I should target? Survival doesn't provide any piston details on their site, but I gather from looking around the piston height for this combination is 1.33 inches, what is available and advisable for the piston volume?
• Based on the above, what cam will give me a nice fat torque curve that can also run out to 6,000 RPM without gasping for air?
• Last, but not least, what should I put on top of the intake? Size, type, and brand? I've never had anything but a vacuum secondary, and I don't really care about smooth driving. When I step in it, I want snap.

I built myself a little CR calculator in excel so I could easily compare builds:

[turbohunter]

Suggest, while it's in the bare block stage to pay a little attention to the oil galleries from cam to head. Especially since it's been sitting out. A little pressure test could save a later head ache. Also the head bolt hole next to the riser.
One of my lessons in FE 101.

[jayb]

I've spun those 4.25" strokers with 6.700" rods to 7000 RPM literally hundreds of times, and so has Barry.  No concern at all spinning to 6000+.

My experience with hydraulic roller lifters is limited, but I think the short travel ones allow more RPM.  I'd go that route.

Stock distributor and Pertronix will be fine, have the distributor set up so that all the advance is in by 3000 RPM or so.

Compression and cam go together; its never a good idea pick them out independently.  You could put a huge cam in that engine and run on pump gas at 11.5:1; shorter duration cams will want less compression.  My advice would be to pick your cam first, based on where you want to operate the engine, and then from there use a DCR calculator to pick your compression ratio.  By the way, even a low end cam will turn the engine to 6000 RPM; I've never heard of a cam limiting an engine's RPM range, except in the case of valve float or hydraulic lifter pump-up.  Take a look at the online catalogs for Comp or some other cam brand, read the details, and post the potential cam candidates here; I'm sure you'll get lots of feedback.

For a carb, I'd be looking at mechanical secondaries myself, especially with the single plane intake.  I love Holley double pumpers...

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks Jay. I may be doing something really stupid, but when I go to the Comp website and specify Ford FE I am limited to hydraulic flat tappet, mechanical flat tappet, or mechanical roller options. If I have a part number for a hydraulic roller cam, I can find it, but their selections if you try to browse don't include a hydraulic roller option. For example, I found one for sale on eBay (not planning on buying it, just using it to make the point) with a grind number XR280HR, if I search for that as a grind number on their site it comes up with a part that I can't otherwise locate.

Appreciate your other advice. I was hoping the recommendation would be a double pumper.

Thanks Turbohunter. BTW I put that James Duff kit in, now I just need an engine to see if makes a difference!

[turbohunter]

BTW I put that James Duff kit in, now I just need an engine to see if makes a difference!

Oh cool.
I'll be interested to hear about it.
The rear hole is working pretty well for me. Think I'll still try to elevate the rear end of the bar a bit though.
Have fun.

[My427stang]

FYI, there is rarely a day my street 489 FE doesn't see 6500 at some point, and it's been fresh as day one since 2006.

My 445 truck motor wouldn't make any power up there, but I wouldn't hesitate letting it run there either

[ScotiaFE]

It's not uncommon for FE's to have a little extra deck meat.
Good for you.
To get to an actual zero deck you may find you need to bring it to 10.16" +-.

I had a look at Summit for that stick.
Looks ok for a small one.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-cl34-432-9

This one looks like it may have some excitement in it.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-349541/overview/make/ford

[Yellow Truck]

Howie,

Like I said, I'm not going to buy that one, the point is I can't find Comp hydraulic rollers for the FE on their website. BTW if you look at that Comp cam on Summit they describe it as a "Hydraulic Roller Tappet". They need to make up their mind.

Looking at the Crane website, this is what I'd be drawn to: HR-234/354-2S-12. It's claimed range is 2,400 to 6,200 for a 428. Probably get a bit more lower end torque with the 4.25 stroke. I'm out of my depth, but the gross lift looks like it might be too much.

Having said that, my problem is I'll probably only build one of these, and won't have the chance to compare. Be nice to get some strong advice from someone who has had the chance to do similar builds with different cams.

[Barry_R]

Just got back in from Beaver Springs - it'll take me a couple days to get back into the groove....

The 4.25 stroker packages will go past 6000 without any problem at all - even in basic form.  Crank, rods, pistons are definitely good for much more if called upon.

Compression and cam inter-relationship are an interesting subject.  Many guys rely upon DCR numbers and try to run a pretty fair amount of compression in street use counting on a bigger cam to get them away from detonation.  My thoughts on compression are that at some point around torque peak you will still have an 11:1 motor when the cam "comes in".  On a lighter weight Cobra or Mustang that may not mean much and will work fine.  But in a Galaxie with freeway gearing or in a truck that same package puts you at risk for a rather minimal gain - maybe 25-30HP.  Following that logic, the hydraulic roller cam packages I use are more often targeted at around a 5500 RPM to 6000 RPM peak - and the standard liftes go there without a problem.

[Yellow Truck]

Barry, thank you for your reply. I think with my truck, running 3.70 gears but being on the heavy side (even if it will never do any heavy hauling) needs to stay out of the risk of detonation. I want 0 to 70 mph (scary to go much faster) acceleration with what is effectively a three speed.

I assume I'll shift above 6,000 only occasionally, and only when I want to show off. I was thinking a power range from near 2 to near 6,000 is the goal.

I will try to get a call in this week. Need to get this started.

[Yellow Truck]

This is pretty much the end of this thread. Go ahold of Barry today and took the plunge. Prison Break kit (flat top pistons for a 10.5 CR), FElony heads, hydraulic roller cam (234/240 at 0.050, 594/598 lift), lifters, a T & D rocker set, a Quick Fuel 830 with mechanical secondaries, plus the extra bits needed. I have a Street Dominator intake.

Next up I'll start a build up thread and ask any questions that come up.

[ScotiaFE]

 
Have fun.

[turbohunter]

Sweet. What he ^^^^^^^said