410 Build up - Questions and Research.

[Yellow Truck]

I listened to the advice, and this is no longer a cam replacement, I'm going to do a full build. Now I have never done this before but I have two friends who are helping me. One is a good junkyard builder who knows FEs pretty well, working with used and swapped parts to build impressive power in his '65 F100, the other is a heavy diesel mechanic who has built some real power in a 385 series (over 500 cu in now) '68 F100. I'll still ask some real rookie questions.

First up, with the engine out and mostly apart we have some early questions from the initial examination. We will completely measure the block but when we pulled three of the bearing caps we saw the lower bearing surfaces looked pretty good. The crank has a couple of nicks, but they have not left any wear marks on the bearings.

The cylinders and pistons are a concern. This is the worst looking of the pistons, it has a slightly moist look to the carbon build up. The rest were comparable but this one was a little worse:



We also noticed scoring. The cross thatching is still visible, and by dragging a fingernail some of the score marks could be felt. Notice that they come right up to the top of the bore, so it is not a skirt:



When we got the pistons out, to our surprise we found the score marks go right to the bottom of the bore, well beyond the piston travel:



Last, we noticed the pistons also have some scoring on the sides of the skirts, but this could be a red herring:



All the cylinders have very similar scoring, and it is fairly evenly distributed around the cylinder circumference. I have never torn an engine apart before, and my friend has never seen scoring like this. I think the engine will need honing, and I will be asking for more guidance as we pull measurements and start considering what to do with heads, intake, carb, and cam selections. Anyone see this before or have an idea as to its source?

[jayb]

Boy, that looks like pretty normal wear to me.  If you are going to re-use the pistons, clean them all up, hone the cylinders, install new rings and you are good to go.  You should take the block to a machine shop and have them measure the bores, though.  It may be best to overbore the block and install new pistons, depending on how much wear is really in the bores.

[Yellow Truck]

Jay, that is encouraging. We didn't think the scoring looked like wear as it starts at the bottom of the bore and continues to the very upper edge, well outside ring travel.

We have not had time yet, but we will be measuring the bores (my rough measurement with a calliper shows 4.074 bore for 415 cubes) but we will be checking for taper, and there is no noticeable ridge. Clean pistons and new rings are in order, possibly a honing, but I do plan to check the block for cracks and sonic test it. We also plan to measure the cam bearings and we will inspect the crank. So far crank bearing wear looks good. I'll come back with a full set of dimensions in the next couple of days. Meanwhile I'm closely reading Barry's book.

[thatdarncat]

I'm just taking a guess here, but I think the engine has been rebuilt once before and they just honed the cylinders ( not bored ) and used new pistons. I think the scratches may be there from before. Those don't look like original pistons, the originals may have had skirts that extended further down the bore. Check things over as you tear it down, they can provide clues. Do the bearings have any manufacturer markings? Original Ford bearings had the Ford logo and a part number along with a date.

[shady]

yep, looks like a home hone job, if everything is within spec, I would hone it with a blueberry bush, clean the pistons, add a new set of rings & make some smoke. If the bearings look good & oil pressure was good I maybe inclined to reuse them. then again I'm a cheap bastard.

[machoneman]

Agree that it does not look bad. Take those pistons with after cleaning to the shop so the machinist can measure current piston-to-bore clearance. Bet they are within spec. and even with a hone will still be useable given no skirt cracking or worn ring lands. If a bore is needed, get the minimal oversized pistons (say .010) over to preserve wall strength and even allow for a future overbore.

For the heck of it, plug a few rings into a bore or two and see what the ring gap is now as well as a de-ringed piston to check skirt clerance. Also, check that the ends of each ring have some carbon and not a polished look (meaning the rings butted from insufficient gaps). I doubt that any rings butted as that often result in broken rings and much worse looking bores. If you are going the whole route, have the shop install new cam bearings after a thorough cleaning. I say that since it's all to easy to mess up the new bearings even with the proper tool.....unless one does it often. 

[Yellow Truck]

I have not made a lot of progress, my buddy with the long dial gauge for measuring the cam bearings hasn't been by, but with a decent quality vermeer calliper I pulled some numbers:
Bore: 4.074
Deck: 0.035
The main bearing caps were not torqued down so this could be a little high, but it is consistent with the ring at the top of the engine. I note it is higher than the value given for the 410 in Steve Christ's book (it gives the clearance deck to piston as 0.005 inches).

I measured the piston dish after cleaning it by filling it with fine sand, levelling it, and then pouring it out and measuring the volume - it gave me about a 12 cc dish.

Using the stock dimensions for stroke and for a Felpro 1020 gasket, and the nominal volume of 74cc for the combustion chamber on a C7AE-A head, I get a C/R of about 9.2:1. Not exactly a performance build.

[Yellow Truck]

The engine is now down to the block, got the crank out and the thrust bearing shows more wear on the top of the bearing than any of the other bottom halves. I'm thinking it needs some machining.

I'm thinking about a few things:

• I called the machine shop my buddies recommended, and they don't have a torque plate for an FE, or a sonic tester. I won't take them the engine based on that, but I can get a torque plate from a guy who had it made by Ford machinists to support his race FEs back in the late sixties.
• I'm also considering buying a cheap ultrasonic tester. You can get good ones for $600 and up, but you can now get cheap ones for $200 or less. Anyone use one?
• This may be over the top, but I'm thinking about getting a girdle for it. There is one on eBay for about $300 that looks pretty good - comes with studs for the oil pan and ties the engine together with a pretty good bit of steel. Needs a little machining to the main caps. Any thoughts?

Here is a picture of the plate:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ford-FE-Deluxe-Main-Girdle-352-360-390-406-410-427-428-Cobra-Jet-cammer-shelby-/261816955795?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item3cf581b393&vxp=mtr

[ScotiaFE]

The world may come to an end, but I doubt it.
Forget the sonic tester and put the money towards pistons.
Go 0.010" over for a 0.040" and get a good piston maybe even on the end of
a 6.7" rod and a 4.250" arm.
Bore and hone with the cool plate and off you go.
I feel the girdle is a fluff item and will not make you any faster or stronger,
just lighter in the wallet.

[Yellow Truck]

I'm looking for some advice. I want as strong a street engine as I can get, I don't really care too much about drivability, it is not a commuter. I want an FE because that is what the truck came with, but I want a 500 HP/500 ft-lbs engine. Money is not my first consideration, but it is not a limitless resource. Can I get some recommendations:


• Lets start with what compression ration should I aim for? The old build was around 9.3
• My preference is to keep the crank and flywheel, but if I'd like to know if that will hold me back and how much.
• I have cast FM pistons, they need to go.
• I have C6AE-C rods. In "Building Max Performance FE Engines" the author says they are good rods, but he also recommends against re-using old rods. Is it worth getting them inspected or should I replace them?
• I need to replace the heads, what should I be thinking about when looking at the after market?
• I can get a used Streetmaster intake for free, for what I'm doing are there any drawbacks
• I am pretty sure I want to go hydraulic roller for the cam. What makes sense, and if you don't mind, I'd like to know why you recommend it.
• Should I re-use any part of the rocker assembly, or should I replace it entirely?

I gave away the heads and intake this week, so I'm committed at this point. I'm interviewing some machine shops, found one that claims FE experience and has a torque plate. I'll get it measured and checked out before I decide what machining to do, but it is time to decide on what to do about the rest of it. Thanks to Howie I won't be spending money on a girdle, although it sounds cool.

[Lenz]

I'll second Howie's advice, .040" over with a 4.250" stroker crank and the appropriate rods will drop right in with a set of 9.8:1 dished or 11:1 flat tops to round it out. 

You'll end up with a 447 that will get you to the power levels you are looking for while still being street friendly enough to enjoy a short trip to Wally-World now and then.

If this has been mentioned and I missed it, my apologies.  Head to the home page on this forum, click on articles/low buck 390 build in car craft.  Lots of additional info and help there to round out what you are looking for.

I went with Survival for my stroker kit, comes with everything you need on the bottom end and won't break the bank, lots of choices out there.  I preferred the balanced assembly all single sourced.  You've already got the block and the articles will help inform you on matching all the other components you need to put a solid runner together.

Good luck with your build.

[fastback 427]

I think Howie and lens are right on the money. Tough to beat Barry's kits for bang for the buck. What is the intended use for the truck? If it were mine I might go a little less compression in a heavy vehicle to help with detonation, jmho. Maybe Barry's or the new bbm heads high swirl chambers will help that though. Also that street master is a great intake.

[bsprowl]

Please don't use Steve Christ's book.  It has many errors.

Use the one from Survival Motorsports.  It is up to date and has excellent advice in it.

Bob

[jayb]

Some of your questions can't be answered real specifically until you pick a target.  How much horsepower, how much torque, and where in the RPM range do you want to run?  You need to have specific answers to these questions before, for example, you can pick a cam.

The compression ratio will depend on the cam you want to run.  For example let's say you want maximum power in the 3000-5000 RPM range.  A cam in the 235@.050" range for duration would get you there, and then a compression ratio of around 10:1 would be just about right for that.  Pick the cam first, or pick several candidates, and post the specifications.  Then decide yes or no on the stroker kit.  With that information, someone here will be happy to run a DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio) calculation on the combination with the different cams, and that will give you the optimum compression ratio.  Milder cams need less compression, and more radical cams need more.

At elevated power levels, the stock rods are a question mark.  With good bolts they will most likely live, but there is the off chance that one will blow up on you.  Why chance it?  Then, if you are going to buy pistons, rings, and rods, the step up to a stroker kit isn't that much, another $600 or $700 maybe.  You asked how much the stock crank and rods will hold you back; without the stroker kit, you are leaving 50 ft-lbs of torque on the table.  That would be a huge difference in a pickup. 

Get that Streetmaster intake!  That is an outstanding intake manifold for a 400-500 horsepower engine.  It will be down a little on torque at low RPM levels compared to a good dual plane like an Edelbrock Performer RPM, but not much, and you won't even miss the torque if you go with the stroker kit.

On the heads, get what you can afford.  The stock Edelbrock heads are excellent, and the Survival Motorsports and BBM heads are a step up from there.  Good heads will help all across the RPM range, but for your combination I'd probably just go with the stock Edelbrock heads.  They work well with the Streetmaster intake, and you can always pull them off and get them ported later.

The valvetrain options will depend on the cam again, and the spring requirements.  You might be able to retain the stock rockershafts, but check them for cracks (see the Car Craft article).  At least figure on getting the rocker shaft end stands from Precision Oil Pumps, because they provide support to the shafts that the factory rocker stands don't. 

Last piece of advice - get the whole plan together before you buy anything.  You want the whole package to work together, and if you change your mind about something halfway through the purchases, you may end up with a component mismatch that will cost you performance.

[Yellow Truck]

Thank you for the replies. Jay, I'm looking for a 500/500 engine, the peak power range of 3,000 to 6,000 is good, the dyno profile on your Car Craft build is outstanding. I want an engine that still makes good power at 6,000 - if you remember my dyno results mine was dead at 5,000.

Today I did find a machine shop with good history with FEs, and I'll get them my block to test and measure before we start. If I can I'll keep it at 4.08, but if needed we will take it to 4.09. Won't know until they have a cut at it.



I'll have to wait until we have the bore size to order anything, but it makes sense to go with a 4.250 crank. I wanted to stay with an original crank for sentimental reasons, but that is silly when I'm swapping out everything else.

Jay, there are a few things you can clarify for me - I want to go with a hydraulic roller lifter. I don't know enough about cams to tell you what I want, but for my current crank Lunati recommended a custom grind with duration of 230 at 0.050, lobe lift of 3.28, and separation of 112. I don't have the experience to tell if that is a good match to to the longer stroke. The guy who runs the machine shop said the dyno results he was quoting were for a hydraulic roller with 230/236 duration at 0.050 and made 500 and 500 with a 4.125 stroke. For some reason he prefers the 4.125, I didn't ask him why.

I also don't know the current rockers will hold up to the higher revs (because if I can I will), or the stiffer springs. I will look at the shafts.