Author Topic: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno  (Read 39792 times)

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Fine69mach1

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My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« on: October 31, 2014, 04:44:44 PM »
My engine shop just completed the build on my 390 strokes to 431.

1968 block bored .30 over. Oil modifications.
4.125 scat crank with 9.8 comp dish pistons.
Custom  grind hyd flat tappet camshaft
Edelbrock 60069 heads with pop shafts and stands. Factory rockers.
Streetmaster port match to edelbrock port sizes.
750 Holley DP mech secondaries.
Windage tray and factory oil pan. High volume oil pump.
Msd distributor.

Started timing at 32 total. 
488 HP and 525tq
Advance timing to 34. Gained more HP and TQ.
Added 1" open spacer under carb and ran timing to 36 total.
For best results at
547 HP @ 5400.  601 TQ @ 4400 rpm.
Real flat torque curve stayed a over 500 tq from 2600rpm.

Defiantly exceeding my expectations. I was planning for 475hp /500tq

This motor will be going into my 69 mach1 with a C6 and 3.91 rear.
Should be a lot of fun.
Thanks to all the guys on their help to answering my questions throughout the summer.
This is my first FE and I can't wait to get behind the wheel.
1969 Mustang Mach1 S code

thatdarncat

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 05:11:02 PM »
Nice build and results. I have one comment though...if by stock oil pan you mean the original 5 quart I'd consider changing it to the deeper Milodon or something. At the least run the extra quart of oil Ford did on the CJ's. If you're staying with that pan maybe try to find some of the long finger drip tins for under the rocker shafts. Jay's testing ( results in his book ) showed they were well worth it, returning the oil to the pan better. Good Luck.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

65er

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 05:13:05 PM »
Really nice results there and sounds like nothing to exotic as far as parts.  Great job I'd say!
-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

Qikbbstang

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 06:10:31 PM »
Stroking, the Streetmaster and that Hyd Cam sure combined to produce some awesome power it looks like a stock 390GT/428CJ on a handful of Steroids!
    Use a CJ/SCJ chromed dipstick for an oil mark and with the HV pump think about adding even more oil to make up for what oil is hung up upstairs.

plovett

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2014, 07:01:36 PM »
Man, can you please tell us the cam spec's? 

Also, were the heads ported? Valve sizes?

What kind of dyno was it?

Nice build for sure. 

paulie

Barry_R

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2014, 09:30:11 PM »
Definitely good numbers.  Might be "too good" at 1.39 lbs of torque per cube form a hydraulic flat tappet 9.8:1 combination.
I would have expected something closer to your original expectations plus or minus a couple percent.
Definitely would be interested in seeing the dyno data
In any case its gonna be a great engine for the car - lots of fun

jayb

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 11:14:05 PM »
Hate to say it, but I kind of had the same "too good" thought...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

rockittsled

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 04:05:02 PM »
Does a typical dyno sheet give the info for the correction factor used in calculating the corrected HP/Torq?  Will the typical dyno operator explain the numbers and differences between them and what everything else means?  How do you tell if an operator turned the altitude/"horsepower" knob?

The reason I ask is that I remember googling to find more info about the Hot Rod 450Hp 390 and finding the discussions on another forum that included comments from DF and I am curious if "our" shop owners like Barry or Brent could look at another shop's sheets and notice things that someone like I wouldn't.  I have never seen an engine dyno, much less had an engine tuned on one, but if I did, I would love to have an expert verify the results that I was given
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 04:44:56 PM by rockittsled »

Joe-JDC

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 05:14:17 PM »
Weather, inside temperature, outside air source temperature, water temperature at start of pull, oil temperature at start of pull, oil level in pan, bsf reading, total air flow consumed, temperature of exhaust, all things to look at to see if the numbers look legitimate.  Rate of acceleration, time to climb, and timing all affect the outcome.  Just an educated guess, but gaining that much horsepower and torque from 4* timing change seems unlikely.  Joe-JDC.
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Fine69mach1

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 05:37:49 PM »
I will try to upload Dyno sheets. My motor and Dyno was done through a very reputable shop who build and run race cars.
As for my build I don't have a print out of every detail of the build yet.
They did do some head work on my edelbrock heads but have the same size valves. Do not know the flow rate.
Cam is a custom grind specific to my motor by their camshaft guy. I don't have specs but it does have a lot of duration and under .600 lift.
I never asked what the actually conpression rate came out at or what my edelbrock heads cc out at either.
Just know the scat stroke kit was a 9.8 dished piston with 72cc head I was told.
My streetmaster intake was port matched to the Edelbrocks and the plenum was cleaned up and polished as well.
I know this motor was blue printed very well and by the responses maybe more was done than I put forth on my right up.

For comparison

32 timing with no carb spacer.
507 HP @ 5400
566 TQ @ 4400

34 timing
526 HP @ 5300
578 TQ @ 4400

36 timing with 1" 4 hole spacer
538 HP @ 5400
583 Tq @ 4400

36 timing with 1" open spacer
547 HP @ 5400
601 TQ @ 4400


Sorry my first post saying my first pull was 488hp was at 32 timing without carb tuning.  After tuning and at 32 deg it started at 507ho and 566 TQ so only 40 HP and torque increase with timing and carb spacer.
1969 Mustang Mach1 S code

thatdarncat

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 06:22:22 PM »
I personally have no idea on if your results are accurate, with the info you have provided, so I'm not making any comment on that. It's still a healthy FE. Knowing the cam specs would go a long way in knowing if it's in the ballpark. Even a custom cam would have come from the grinder with a cam card and your builder should have supplied that to you. You paid for the cam after all. And in a shameless plug again for Jays book, he has a whole chapter on how the dyno works, calibration and what can give incorrect results. Yes it is possible to see bogus correction info right on the dyno sheet, but it is also possible to skew the results other ways, including by going into the programming and inputting factors that are not accurate. And again not knowing your dyno shop I'm not making any comments there, but I have seen otherwise reputable race shops come up with some questionable results that local racers have not been able to repeat when they take their engine somewhere else to back up the results. Everyone likes to see a "big" number and sometimes shops just want to get someone off their backs. That is the reason the pro race teams have their own dyno and operator.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

jayb

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2014, 12:18:58 AM »
Does a typical dyno sheet give the info for the correction factor used in calculating the corrected HP/Torq?  Will the typical dyno operator explain the numbers and differences between them and what everything else means?  How do you tell if an operator turned the altitude/"horsepower" knob?

The reason I ask is that I remember googling to find more info about the Hot Rod 450Hp 390 and finding the discussions on another forum that included comments from DF and I am curious if "our" shop owners like Barry or Brent could look at another shop's sheets and notice things that someone like I wouldn't.  I have never seen an engine dyno, much less had an engine tuned on one, but if I did, I would love to have an expert verify the results that I was given

A good dyno sheet will have the correction factor and weather information available.  The weather is one factor that can easily change the corrected torque and power numbers.  This happened to a local friend of mine who runs a stock eliminator Mustang; his engine dynoed at a shop run by a well respected national racer, and he got excellent results, but the car wouldn't run that fast on the track.  He brought his dyno sheets over to show me, and the barometric pressure indicated that the shop was nearly as high as Denver, not at 1000 feet like the area around here.  The dyno's barometer was way off, either due to miscalibration, or it was intentionally set wrong.  The result was an overly large correction factor, and 50 extra horsepower that wasn't really there.

Also as Kevin mentioned there are ways to cheat the results if you are unscrupulous enough to do that.  The dyno is controlled by software, and it is not too difficult to get into the software and adjust the "gain" on the torque link, to give a higher torque reading.  This is why, if you really want to be confident of your results, you should have the dyno operator calibrate the dyno for you before testing.  If you don't see it yourself, how can you know if the dyno is reading accurately? 

Without naming names, I'll guarantee you that some of the most well respected engine builders out there, including FE engine builders, have "happy" dynos, that give very optimistic results.  Its all about satisfying the customer  ::)  I will also say that Barry R's results and Blair P's results are always very consistent with similar engines that I have dynoed, and I know my dyno gives accurate results because I calibrate it regularly. 

Back to the original topic though, and regardless of the accuracy of the dyno results it sure does sound like a strong engine.  Should be a lot of fun in the car...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2014, 06:36:43 AM »
My dyno numbers have been accused of being "too high" for some applications, and "too low" for others.  Its really a matter of reality not matching desires or expectations. 

Similar engines built with reasonably similar machining and components by competent people should provide similar results within a rational range.  Once you get beyond a few percentage points in either direction its time to carefully evaluate any outliers to see "why" they gave those results.  You need to isolate whether you have a test equipment issue, a testing conditions issue - or whether you "found something" in that particular combination that is worth replicating.

Its possible to crutch the correction by pushing the sensor data with changes in location or airflow.  If the temperature sensor is located in an unusually warm position in the cell - like above the headers and away from the room's airflow path - it will read unrealistically high and add correction.  If the sensor is in the room proper, but airflow into the engine is ducted from the outside it's possible to use far colder inlet air into the engine than the sensor indicates.  A high speed fan in that intake duct will add a little positive pressure and push numbers up a little as well.

We've seen the impact of different testing methodology and application of varied correction factors in the Engine Masters Challenge each year.  Along with rules changes each year, they also will sometimes tweak the testing parameters.  its like tuning for a given race track - some guys pick up on the opportunities each change provides and use them to develop a strategy that provides for a competitive advantage.

blykins

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2014, 08:44:47 AM »
One of these days, I will build a mule and send it around to various shops to dyno.  There are some pretty big differences (up to 5-6%) between some of the dynos around here, and I think it's because of some of the reasons that Barry outlined.  I really don't think there are that many "malicious" dyno operators out there, but I think there are some inherent design characteristics of each brand that may help or hurt the numbers. 

Barry knows that dyno results are a general pet peeve of mine.  Most of the time I see numbers from other builders that pretty much jive with what I see from my own stuff, plus or minus a few ponies.  However, you have to raise your eyebrows when every engine that comes out of a particular shop could be a legitimate EMC competitor. 





Brent Lykins
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Rory428

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Re: My 431 stroker Build and Dyno
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2014, 02:30:19 AM »
I also have to question some power numbers that I have seen, especially in the big California car magazines. One magazine article I recall was they took a 100,000 miles, bone stock junkyard 5.0 Mustang,engine ,and untouched from the wrecking yard, it made more power than my Stock Eliminator 5.0 Mustangs engine did! (My Mustang ran 12.3s in legal NHRA trim,, at 3100lbs). As for the origional posters 431, great numbers if they are legit, his hyd cammed, 9.8 compression blows away the .030 over 428, .650" lift solid cam, 11.5 compression dud that ran 10.0s at 132 MPH in my 3100 lb Fairmont, or my 427/428 cranked slug that ran 9.9ETs, yet barely made 500 ft/lbs of torque on the dyno.Funny thing is my turds have ran toe to toe with a couple of similar weight cars with (supposedly 650-700 HP engines.( Different dynos of course.)
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH