Author Topic: FE Timing Cover  (Read 42761 times)

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cjshaker

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2014, 10:38:26 AM »
Another vote for the silver. They look great, my only concern would be with the spacing on the plate bolts. Do you think enough tension will be maintained on the O-ring to keep it from leaking? They're spaced pretty far apart in a couple areas. I'd also like to get in line for one of the 140002 covers, but I assume you won't take orders until they're placed in the vendors section?
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2014, 12:53:21 PM »
Another vote for the silver. They look great, my only concern would be with the spacing on the plate bolts. Do you think enough tension will be maintained on the O-ring to keep it from leaking? They're spaced pretty far apart in a couple areas. I'd also like to get in line for one of the 140002 covers, but I assume you won't take orders until they're placed in the vendors section?

Boy, I sure hope they don't leak LOL!  The steel plate is 0.125" thick and pretty rigid, so I don't think I'll have any problems, but that's why I want to put one on the engine on the dyno and check it before I offer them up as a production item.  And you are correct Doug, I haven't started the list yet, and when I do an advertisement for these timing covers will appear in the Vendor Classifieds.  Thanks to everyone who has expressed interest in purchasing one; please get back to me on that after I put them up for sale in the Vendor Classifieds - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

mike7570

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2014, 08:22:45 PM »
Clear cover plate to go with you clear valve covers.....

Heo

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2014, 08:34:11 PM »

Nice timing covers.You have`t thought about making
coverplates out of stainles steel? Then there is the option
to polish it to get a cromelike finnish or glasbead it to
look like aluminium



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

fe66comet

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2014, 09:14:59 PM »
Can't wait till they are ready, my EFI project would be a lot easier with one of them!!!!

BruceS

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2014, 09:28:18 PM »
They look mighty nice, and I've got a couple of 427 blocks that need covers!  Looking forward to the dyno results.

Bruce
66 Fairlane 500, 347-4V SB stroker, C4
63 Galaxie 500 fastback, 482 SO 4V, Cruise-O-Matic

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2014, 06:55:37 PM »
As was correctly pointed out sometime back in this thread, or somewhere else maybe, having the removable plate on the timing cover isn't all that useful unless you can change your cam timing with it off.  Back when I started the timing cover project I decided I needed a plan for doing that, and it didn't involve using the commercially available "hex-adjust" chains from Cloyes, which didn't look to me like a real reliable solution.  I did some drawings and came up with a plan on how to modify an FE timing set to make changing the cam timing possible from the top gear position, and then set it all aside while I worked on the timing covers.

When I got the timing covers more or less dialed in a couple weeks ago, I decided to go back and address the adjustable top timing gear.  I've been working on that for the past couple of weekends, and have discovered some rather interesting things about the FE timing gear sets that are available out there.  I'll get to that stuff in a minute, but first, since a picture is worth a thousand words, here is a top timing gear that is modified so that the cam timing can be changed with the front plate of my timing cover removed:



This is a spare Rollmaster timing gear that I had in my parts box.  I was interested in using Rollmaster sets because they come with the good Iwis timing chain, and I also have one on my 428CJ dyno mule, which is the engine I'm planning to test with next weekend.  The original hole for the cam pin is marked with a "0" on the gear now, and six more holes have been put in the gear.  The mark above each hole represents where that hole is in terms of timing, as compared to the original hole.  All marks are in crank degrees, not cam degrees.  Assuming that you are at TDC on the number one cylinder, to use straight up cam timing you would put the tooth marked with the factory dimple straight down, and put the cam pin in the hole marked zero.  To advance the cam 4 degrees, you would put the tooth that is marked "+4" straight down, and put the cam pin in the hole marked "+4".  All other cam degreeing is done the same way.  This gear is set up so that you can advance or retard the cam plus or minus 6 crank degrees, in 2 degree increments.

With one of these Rollmaster sets, and many other sets of course, you also can advance or retard the cam timing at the crank gear.  The way I would envision using this setup when building an engine is to set the cam up degreed the way you think you'd want it (whether advanced or retarded, or straight up), using the crank gear.  Then, you could fine tune the cam timing using the cam gear, through the opening in the timing cover, after the engine was all put together.  You'd just have to pull the water pump, and then pull the front plate on the timing cover, to change your cam timing.

When I first got going on this project last weekend, I pulled out the timing sets that I had on hand and started looking at them in detail.  I found quite a few differences in critical dimensions on these things.  Here's a picture of the four upper timing gears that I had on hand:



On the upper left is the Rollmaster, the upper right gear is from some outfit called JR Performance, the lower right is the standard performance Cloyes gear, and the lower left is the top end Cloyes gear.  Both the Cloyes sets, and the Rollmaster set, come with the good Iwis timing chain; the JR Performance set came with a chain from India.  (Danger, Will Robinson LOL!)  One thing that struck me right off the bat was that on three of the gears, the mark on the outside cam tooth was on the opposite side of the center hole as the cam pin, but on the high end Cloyes set, the mark on the gear, and the cam pin, are on the same side of the center hole.  I wonder why they did that?  The motor won't care, but the high end Cloyes gear seems very unconventional.

After getting these things out I started measuring them.  I have a set of plug gauges in 0.0005" diameter increments to measure the center hole and the cam pin hole.  Both the Cloyes gears measured a perfect 0.7500", just barely allowing my pin to go through the center hole.  The JR Performance gear measured 0.749", and the Rollmaster measured 0.7485"!  Also, looking inside the Rollmaster center hole it was clear that it was an interference fit on the cam, on whichever engine I'd installed it on.  There were lines and burrs on that inside diameter.  Since I was going to have to make a fixture to hold these things, it was clear that the fixture wasn't going to fit both the Cloyes and the Rollmaster gears.  In the end I solved this problem by using a removable pin as the center post of the fixture, and grinding the OD of the pin down a couple of thousandths so it would fit inside the Rollmaster gear.  But again I have to wonder about the rationale at Rollmaster to make the center hole a press fit, rather than a slip fit like the Cloyes gears are.  Maybe a more secure connection to the cam or something?

The situation was similar when I started measuring the cam pin holes in the gears.  Both Cloyes gears and the JR gear measured 0.3120" for the cam pin hole diameter, but the Rollmaster measured 0.3110".  I had a billet roller cam handy on the bench and it measured exactly 0.3125", which I think is what it is supposed to measure.  So it appears that the cam pin should be a press into the top timing gear, but it was much more of a press on the Rollmaster gear than on the others.  Again, I don't know why.

After figuring all this out I wanted to confirm that these measurements were consistent on the Rollmaster sets, so I gave Doug Garifo at Precision Oil Pumps a call and had him send me a new Rollmaster set, just so I could check it; it is supposed to arrive this week.  In the meantime, I got to work designing a fixture to hold the top timing gear while I machined it.  Since the dyno mule I'll be running the timing cover on already has a Rollmaster set in it, I decided to do the Rollmaster fixture first.  Here's a picture of it, with the gear installed and already machined, on my smaller CNC machine:



Those little clamps hold the gear in place while I'm machining it, and the gear itself indexes on a pin in the center hole, and a 1/4" pin that is installed on the left side of the gear, to mesh with one particular pair of teeth.

Next on my list is to do the high end Cloyes gear.  I think I'm probably not going to do the standard Cloyes gear, because the timing gear itself is cast iron rather than steel, and I'm a little concerned that putting all these extra holes in the middle of the gear might weaken the cast iron gear too much.  What do you guys think?  I'm much less worried about the top end Cloyes and the Rollmaster gears, because they are steel, not cast iron.  The Cloyes gear also offers the opportunity for me to drill and tap a few holes in the middle, so that I could install a cam sensor target on this gear.  Then I could put a matching hole in the front plate of the timing cover, and offer anyone going with EFI an easy route to installing a cam sensor.  That would be pretty cool, I think...

Over the Thanksgiving weekend I plan to get my 428CJ back on the dyno, probably with a different set of headers along with one of these timing sets and timing covers, and then run some back to back dyno pulls by changing the cam timing through the whole range of of adjustability that this modified top gear offers.  They always say that you will improve low end torque by advancing the cam, and improve high end horsepower by retarding it.  We will see next weekend if that holds true on this particular engine.  I will post the results in the technical section next weekend, barring any unforeseen problems.


Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2014, 07:38:37 PM »
Looks like it would be a nice set-up. If you used front block feed ports along with a remote pump it would be a breeze to make changes and not have to drain any fluids. Nice for a drag car where you don't need a pump pulley, or even a well built healthy street car. I always wondered why the manufacturers never did the multiple pin locations. It's easy and cheap.

Personally, I'd probably skip the iron gear since anybody using this set-up will probably be using the better steel sets. I'm really interested in the dyno results of the timing changes.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

BruceS

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2014, 09:08:57 PM »
Jay,
Are you considering offering the modified Roll Master steel gear timings sets along with the the cover?

Thanks,
Bruce
66 Fairlane 500, 347-4V SB stroker, C4
63 Galaxie 500 fastback, 482 SO 4V, Cruise-O-Matic

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2014, 09:32:59 PM »
Yes, Bruce, I plan to do that - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2014, 11:32:51 AM »
Cool setup Jay!  I find myself making little fixtures like that for lots of projects. 

On the iron sprocket, you won't have any problems with strength if you pop in those new holes.  I'm with Doug though in thinking you won't see much demand for it.  People will want more bling with their shiny new timing covers, and those steel sprockets fit the bill!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2014, 12:59:58 PM »

On the iron sprocket, you won't have any problems with strength if you pop in those new holes. 

Are you pretty sure about that Bill?  Because I'd really rather use the Cloyes setup, since it seems to fit the nose of the cam and the cam pin better, and it does come with the good chain.  And its cheaper.  I'm going to have to charge a premium of about $100 to do the machining on these things, so keeping the cost of the chain down will help keep the overall cost down also for any of the FE guys out there who may be interested.

I'm a little concerned that the cast center of the Cloyes gear might give up with all those extra holes in it, when running something like a big roller cam with a lot of spring pressure...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2014, 07:41:30 PM »
Yeah it shouldn't be a problem Jay.  Maybe we should cook up a 3D file and I can run some FEA studies to make sure. 

Torque won't be a problem.  If there's any out-of-plane bending I would want to take a closer look (such as somebody whacking the sprocket with a hammer to get it seated).
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

fe66comet

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2014, 08:01:51 PM »
I wonder how the profiles of the different cams would affect things like a hydraulic roller vs a solid roller? Any plans for such comparisons? Would be interesting to see how each cam type reacts to the change. My money would be on the billet steel part, in my experience they seem to hold chain tension better over time and wear better. I would be definitely game for a cam sensor. What sort would it be, magnetic, hall effect or optional?

Barry_R

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2014, 08:11:55 PM »
I've been trying to get the Cloyes folks to make these for an FE for a few years now.
We can try again at PRI

http://www.cloyes.com/quickadjust.html