Author Topic: FE Timing Cover  (Read 42779 times)

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Joe-JDC

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2014, 09:01:16 PM »
The only problem I see with the degree holes would be adding an additional hole to balance the gear after you drill all those offset holes.  Camshaft balance will be an issue if not careful.  Looks great, by the way.  Keep up the good work!  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2014, 09:47:28 PM »
I've been trying to get the Cloyes folks to make these for an FE for a few years now.
We can try again at PRI

http://www.cloyes.com/quickadjust.html

Wow, I didn't know Cloyes made anything like that.  That would be cool if we could talk them into that, providing they weren't exorbitantly priced...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2014, 10:27:23 PM »
Years ago, MPG who still makes oil pan scrapers, had a similar cam advance/retard set-up for BBF's. It's no longer made but I do clearly remember seeing same in SuperFord magazine with a detailed article.  Perhaps John V. would remember same but I don't think he's signed up here.

Their design IIRC actually used a std. cam gear but had an adjustable crank gear that was keyed to a plate bolted to the crank's snout. One could easily loosen three boltss that were external to the oil path and advance or retard up to 10 or so degrees. Wish I had that article to post here. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 09:37:58 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2014, 09:58:01 AM »
I would be definitely game for a cam sensor. What sort would it be, magnetic, hall effect or optional?

The cam sensors that I'm familiar with all use a threaded barrel body, 12mm or 1/2" in diameter.  Cherry, Hamlin, and Honeywell are sources.  Most of them are hall effect, and the Cherry and Hamlin sensors have a magnet built into the sensor, so that the target (what you are sensing) just has to be made of a magnetic material like iron or steel.  I've been using the Cherry sensors on both cam and crank for my SOHC engines with good results, and using just a bolt head as the target.

http://cherryswitches.com/us/product/speed-sensor-gs1001-1002/
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2014, 10:07:20 AM »
The only problem I see with the degree holes would be adding an additional hole to balance the gear after you drill all those offset holes.  Camshaft balance will be an issue if not careful.  Looks great, by the way.  Keep up the good work!  Joe-JDC

Joe, I can't imagine that the empty holes (or lack of a balancing hole) will be a balance issue.  The amount of material is small, the distance from the center of rotation is small, and the cam is only spinning at half engine speed.  Seems to me that the fuel pump eccentric would cause a much bigger balance issue than the holes in the cam gear.  Also, for comparison here's a Cloyes hex-adjust set with what appears to be a much bigger imbalance:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3108a/overview/make/ford

I'm figuring that if this isn't a problem, the modified gear won't be a problem either.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

XR7

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2014, 09:29:58 PM »
Those timing covers really look great Jay, good job on that from start to finish. I am curious how long it will take to change timing with your upper gear scenario. I have always found the same thing with cams and gears and pins... being different sizes, either too tight or a little sloppy on one or the other, or both. Pins are available in different diameters and length, but you usually have to sort through several to find a good fit.

I am wondering how easy it will be to remove the gear from the cam and/or pin, with the chain attached of course, and not being able to remove the crank gear or away from the block a little in order to do that (that is the point right, to not have to remove the damper and all, etc.) as a tight fitting chain will not flex much for removing the cam gear out far enough to re-index the pin (I think... but could be wrong). Just thinking out loud, having not tried this with what you are developing here.

I would think the two piece gear like Barry mentioned would be a much better way to go, without having to remove the cam bolt, and gear and chain etc... worry about the chain dropping and losing timing, crank tooth/gear location (might be hard to see with the cover on). Anyway all of the cam belt gears are like that, loosen 6 small bolts and move the two piece cam gear to change the timing, has to be much faster and trouble free.

I am just guessing on all this, and also hoping that you will find it easier than I am imagining. Sounds like you will find out this weekend perhaps? The "chicken coop" skunk works projects are sure cool (or is it the milk barn?). Have a great Thanksgiving weekend Jay!

Also, my buddy has several Penske short blocks from the 90's, and they all had "balanced" cam gears to run with the fuel pump eccentric, you could see where they had holes drilled all on one side to balance it with the eccentric attached. So there is something to that, when you get to a certain level (and maybe RPM) and for endurance.
68 Cougar XR7 GT street legal, 9.47@144.53, 3603# at the line, 487 HR center oiler, single carb, Jerico 4 speed, 10.5 tires, stock(er) suspension, all steel full interior

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2014, 09:49:41 PM »
How easy it is to change timing with the different pin locations is an open question, and you are correct that I hope to answer that this weekend.  I think if I pull the alignment pin out first, I should be able to pull the cam gear straight off the cam, and then move it to whatever position I need.  We will see...

On the balance thing, I'm just not convinced.  What about all the spring pressure on the cam lobes?  Wouldn't that trump any forces created by any out of balance condition on the timing gear?  I just don't think its an issue...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 09:53:14 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2014, 06:25:12 AM »
Thread the pin so you can use a little dent puller on it.  Leave everything else assembled.  Remove center bolt, remove pin, use big wrench on crank to rotate engine a small amount until the desired pin hole lines up.  Might be helpful to make larger moves in small steps using an undersized pin and "recentering" before moving to the next one.

BTW - I like my idea better too  :)

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2014, 08:56:57 AM »
Already got the threaded pin idea covered, but the problem is that when you go to the next hole, you also have to line a different cam gear tooth up with the crank gear tooth.  So, you can't just rotate the top gear to the next pin hole; the top gear has got to come off and be moved.  I think it will, once the pin is out.  We will see...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2014, 10:10:54 PM »
I was able to make some more progress on this project over the holiday weekend, but an unannounced visit from the "outlaws" limited my time in the shop somewhat.  Oh well, I made good progress after they left, but I had been hoping to have the engine on the dyno for some cam timing variation tests.  That will have to wait until this coming weekend I guess.

First project this weekend was to get the Cloyes timing gear drilled for different cam timing locations.  I also wanted to take advantage of the solid center of this gear to drill it for targets for the cam sensor that I had envisioned going into the removable front plate of the timing cover.  This turned out to be more complicated than I had imagined.  First, I wanted to make sure that the cam target passed by the sensor location in the cover plate 135 degrees before TDC on the #1 firing stroke.  This way, the next crank sensor pulse would be the #1 cylinder pulse (the crank sensor on most EFI systems triggers well before top dead center in order to allow the EFI computer to add ignition advance to the spark pulse).  This basically meant that since any change in cam timing required a re-position of the top timing gear, I would need to have seven different positions for the cam sensor, one for each position of the cam pin, in order to maintain the 135 degree lead angle.

After I figured all that out, the next complexity turned out to be the water pumps.  Surprisingly enough, I found two stock water pumps with different shapes, and both of these were different than the shape of an Edelbrock pump.  And of course with my water pump adapters and the CVR electric pump, there was a fourth combination.  The difficulty was trying to figure out where to position the cam sensor so that no matter what water pump was used, it would still fit.  The sensor sticks out somewhat from the timing cover plate, making fitment a little complex.  Finally I figured out a good place for the sensor, and wrote the program to machine the upper Cloyes timing gear.  Here's a picture of the Cloyes timing set after the top gear has been machined, and then another picture with the top gear installed on my 428CJ:





The bolt with the nut behind it, shown screwed into the top gear in both photos, is the target for the cam sensor.  I used a Cherry gs1001 cam sensor for this mockup, which has its own magnet and will turn on when the front of the sensor is close to any steel or iron object.  Each hole for the cam sensor is marked with the corresponding timing mark for the pin that goes into the cam.  So for example, if you are timing the cam so that it is 2 degrees advanced, the pin for the cam goes in the +2 marked hole, and the cam sensor target screws into the corresponding +2 hole in the outer ring of the gear.  Once the removable cover is put in place on the timing cover, the sensor should point right at the cam target at 135 degrees before top dead center of #1 on the firing stroke.  Here's a picture of the front of the engine with the timing cover plate installed, plus the Edelbrock water pump, the harmonic balancer, and the factory timing pointer:



Just fits LOL!  The Edelbrock pump is the tightest setup, so I think this setup will work with any mechanical water pump.  I'm not sure about some of the other electric pumps out there, like for example a Meziere pump, but I'm hoping there will be enough room with those setups also.

One thing I discovered when messing around with this installation was that the cam installed in this engine (Comp 294S) had a pin hole in the cam that was much smaller than the hole in the Comp roller cam that I had originally measured.  The pin hole in the roller cam measured right at 0.3125", exactly 5/16", but the cam installed in the 428CJ had a pin hole that measured 0.309"!  This is the same kind of variation that I saw in the different timing gears that I had measured.  After test fitting the timing cover and removing and replacing the top gear through the center opening a few times it had become clear that I needed a slip fit of the pin into the timing gear and the cam; a press fit wouldn't allow the top gear to come off.  In order to get the top gear off you need to pull the pin first, and then pull the gear forward off the nose of the cam.  The conclusion is that to make this setup functional for changing the cam timing, a slip fit of the cam pin is mandatory, and because of the variation in pin holes in the cam, the pin that came with the cam is the one that needs to be used.

After I got the Cloyes setup dialed in I put the original Rollmaster set back in, with the modified top gear, and started to get the front of the engine together.  I had decided to try out the 351C front seal for this installation, and when I got to the installation of the crank sleeve, it became apparent that it would have to be machined to work with the front-installed 351C seal, because the sealing surface of the sleeve wasn't long enough.  Just another delay, and that's where I'm stuck at the moment.  I expect to have the crank sleeve machined and the engine all the way back together later this week.  So, again barring no unforeseen problems (or visits from the outlaws LOL!), I should be able to test this setup on the dyno next weekend.  Should be fun...

Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2014, 06:41:09 AM »
Is it your plan to have a larger cam bolt washer cover the slip-fit pin to prevent it from falling out?

Interested to see your results of especially retarding a cam for less low end/more top end and a what rpm level.
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2014, 08:19:28 AM »
The picture is a little deceptive; that washer does actually overlap the pin just a little, preventing it from coming out.  And I'm also pretty interested to see if the conventional wisdom with cam timing changes holds true on this engine...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2014, 10:56:27 AM »
The picture is a little deceptive; that washer does actually overlap the pin just a little, preventing it from coming out.  And I'm also pretty interested to see if the conventional wisdom with cam timing changes holds true on this engine...

Me too on the cam timing. It was common practice (at least long ago) to retard a blown nitro engine's cam timing to limit tire spin w/o hurting the top end charge. Yet, I'm sure it's a lot different story in a much less hp naturally aspirated gasoline engine and could possibly even hurt top end hp. Kudo's to some dyno testing to see what is really happening.   
Bob Maag

fe66comet

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2014, 11:43:25 AM »
My damper required that 7/16 be milled off the snout spacer to fit, will this be an issue? I ended up using an ATI damper that is a little wider than stock so the spacer had to be milled to align the damper properly and to have all the damper on the crank snout rather than hang off the end.

jayb

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Re: FE Timing Cover
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2014, 12:17:41 PM »
I don't think so, Jon.  First off you can always use the standard FE seal in the timing cover, that will fit the stock spacer.  And even if you wanted to use the 351C seal, I don't think that the stock spacer needs to be cut back anywhere near that far.  Should be no issue.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC