Survival heads vs Edelbrock heads modified..

[bn69stang]

When is there going to be more info on the BBM stuff , someone really needs to come up with cheaper block options for us , the head options are there along with all the supporting parts.. Bud

[ScotiaFE]

$3295 fully machined just needing a zero deck and final hone for a 4.250 bore. According to Doug and Bob's ad.
Most other aftermarket blocks in the 8 to 9 Litre range are comparable in price.
Yes we all want 1999.00 sideoiler race blocks, but it's not going to happen.
427 blocks were expensive in the 60's and they are still expensive.
Once they are out in public we will get a better look at them, but if they are as good as the old Genesis then anyone who
buys one will be getting a good deal.
I paid more for my now vintage Genesis block. just saying

And yes everyone should buy Canadian made and support our economy, but there really is not a lot of Canadian made aftermarket
427 blocks so one will have to buy Foreign. 

[machoneman]

Hah! $1999 FE 427 blocks. Still, IIRC, I bought a brand new in the crate Boss 302 4-bolt bare block for just over $200 in about 1977. Ford just a few years prior (1974?) offered bare non-SOHC 427 blocks for about $250.00 and H-M was selling complete 427 SOHC's for $1999.00!   

http://www.dearbornflashback.com/xfiles.asp

Heck, I even bought a L-88 427 Chevy (sorry!) short block in 1973 for about $700.00!

[Qikbbstang]

I just don't understand why the big to do about 10-20 or even 30 cfm from one head vs another there has to be more then flow numbers of the heads by themselves. To my thinking well over 50% of the buyers of these heads will bolt them on a motor with no porting done to their selected intake manifold. Certainly Joe-JDC does not do his magic on but a trickle of FE Intakes and who else even does the art of FE intake manifold work?.....  Does it not make sense that any companies tricked out $2500 heads should have something similar as far as porting their customers selected intake to match up to those big $$ heads?
           Maybe I'm wrong but my guess is an un-modified intake can lay waste to getting anything near the full performance out of those high-$-heads.   I sat in on a Superflow presentation at PRI on Wet-Flowing-Heads, again flowing air is one thing - flowing an air:fuel mixture is another.  I've never even heard mention of an FE head being wet flowed.   Obviously if one looks at Pro/Stock heads the era of bigger-is-better ports has passed.
     Ditto the Gents that do not intend to build full time race motors  I see the .700" inch lift figure thrown into this discussion - isn't .700" reserved for solid rollers in full time race only FEs? ..... Seems almost like the malarkey claims of K&N where they take off a stock filter and bolt on a K&N air-filter to a full race engine and get and additional 50HP - So the average Joe believes he'll get an additional 50HP if he bolts on a K&N on his wifes SUV.
   


 

[sumfoo1]

My opinion in summary... if you don't care about your intake you won't care about your heads so buy the cheapest ones you can to fit your purpose.

Or for that matter just use the stock stuff.  you are exactly right you have to build an entire engine together... but if you aren't building one for power then there is no reason to be too choosy.

Intake needs to match heads which need to match cam...  There is no point in putting a sheet-metal intake on an engine with poor flowing heads and a cam that dies at 5000 rpm....

There is no reason to put heads that have amazing flow numbers at .700"  when your cam only opens to .450"

There is no reason to have a long duration high lift cam on a dual plane single carb intake with poor flowing heads...

I would hope that all of these would be obvious to anyone posting on an engine specific forum. I mean if this was FMF or something where half the cars are just meant to be pretty i would understand someone wanting to build an engine without any idea of how.... but this is FEPower.... and CFM of heads directly affects the power the FE can make as long as you do the other supporting mods required.

/rant.

[bn69stang]

Amen on that , there is a difference , 400-450 , 450-500, 500 -550 and so on as far as horsepower go s and if its better heads that take you there or more intake or a bigger carb then do what each wants .. To me i feel you can have 500 plus hp , and still have a very streetable car or truck and enjoy it ..Bud

[Barry_R]

That - in a "nutshell" - is why I post my web site flow data in a graphic format rather than just a peak number.  And its why I am often asking about port volume.  Its comparatively easy to get "big" flow numbers from a "big hole" - but its not conducive to part throttle behavior, acceleration through the powerband, or throttle response.

[bn69stang]

Barry im ready to order a set of your heads , and put them on my 428 along with the cam swap and also order a tremec tko 600 , i have  been saving for a year to make some changes on my stang .. BUD

[TomP]

This might come as a shock but flow isn't everything and it is possible to lose power with more flow than is needed.

Would an Econoline cube van with a 302 be better off with 1969 Boss 302 heads?

[bn69stang]

Not even a fair contest , big difference in 302 cubes and 434 cubes , bore and rpm range . I would say that if anyone used a 428 or a 445 and did 2 dyno runs on either , one with stock edelbrocks and the other with survival felony heads , the felony heads would best the eds by a solid 40 hp .. IMO  Bud

[cjshaker]

This might come as a shock but flow isn't everything and it is possible to lose power with more flow than is needed.

Says the man with a High Riser and dual 4 intake!

Sorry Tom, I just couldn't resist
But you are absolutely right. The smallest port you can get, while still maintaining the flow needed to support your horsepower, is the better choice. Or "quality" over "quantity". Boss 302s and Cleveland 4v heads are the perfect example.

[bn69stang]

Correct me if im wrong guy s , i understand you need a complete package to work together but almost every thread you read about an fe these days has reworked edelbrock heads with bigger valves and some mild port reworking , Jay even posted a car craft article , Barry s book with flow info posted . Joe s posting s on flow and applications - all this to me says like it was mentioned way early in this forum ( spend money on the valve train ) . I don t think that the felony head is to much for what im doing with my 434 inch , along with all the parts i have and the kieth kraft stage 2 head s probably would be , the bbm heads would work as well . Bud

[cjshaker]

I don t think that the felony head is to much for what im doing with my 434 inch , along with all the parts i have and the kieth kraft stage 2 head s probably would be , the bbm heads would work as well . Bud

Absolutely not. I think the post has just turned into a long discussion on flow vs. port size vs. port volume vs. U.S. vs. overseas vs. vs. vs. 

Either the Edelbrocks or the FElony heads would work fine for your intentions. The BBMs look to be in the same ballpark also. I don't think you would go wrong with any of the 3.

[CaptCobrajet]

Modifying the standard Ed in my opinion is not the way to get the most for your money.  CNC programs for the standard head that make it bigger and bigger are not the best either, in my opinion.  The Pro Port Ed is absolutely the best platform.  It is a "porter's head".   I rarely see mention of the Pro Ports in forum discussions.  They have a tiny port...........just big enough to get a tool started, and a finished guide hole. They also have a spark plug hole and only enough chamber cast in to make a rough seat hole.   A blank sheet of paper, basically.  The port can be small.........in the stock location for a MR gasket.   It could also be mid 170's on CC's and flow 170 at .200, 280-ish at .400, and 320-sumpn at .600.  It can have an exhaust with a nice raised floor with no welding.  There is alot more to a cylinder head than just the max flow number............especially with streetable cams at .600 lift or less.  All of these fellers sell nice products.  My choice is the Pro Port.  If you buy any of the other heads and spend equal money on prep, I have concluded that the Ed Pro Port with a well-designed CNC program and the right finish work will give the most bang for the buck.  We did a 496 cuber at 12.5 static that made 785 hp and 710 tq with a small Pro Port as described.  The proud owner put it in a street car.  He then decided to go and run a little at the racetrack.  It went 6.20 at 110 with DOT tires.  He had to coast through the 1/4 mile because he only has a 6-point rollbar.  The only "oops" was he had a thermostat in it and a mechanical water pump and it blew a frost plug out when it went from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in about a second.  With a little tweaking, this car will go 6.00's and probably 9.40..........and not exceed 7000 rpm except at the finish line.   The car is a '64 Fairlane and weighs 3350 lbs with a driver.  It has a 4.11 Detroit Locker......not even a spool!  Pro Ports..............the timeslip don't lie.  There is a pic of the car on the FE Forum in Don Fottis post.  It really looks like a grocery getter.   Pro Ports..........................

Blair Patrick

[machoneman]

Those ports are small!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-61857/overview/

I do wonder though why these heads, as Blair mentioned, are hardly ever spoken about on many forums.  Is it true though that so much needs to be hogged out that even with a great CNC program, the machine time needed to do so raises the cost a bunch? Put another way, compared to a say a Stage 1 or Stage II CNC port job on a finished head, does the Edel's cost become prohibitive for all but all-out racers?