Author Topic: Paint Conundrum  (Read 20315 times)

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jayb

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Paint Conundrum
« on: October 02, 2011, 11:50:41 AM »
So, let me just say up front that I'm fussy about the colors on my cars.  For example, I bought my '69 Mach 1 in large part because I was thrilled with the car's color.  The paint code on the tag says it was Silver Jade, and I made the assumption that when the car had been repainted, it had been repainted the factory color, because it looked like the silver jade color in a book I have.  At Drag Week in 2005 the trunk lid took a hit from the trailer, and I wanted to fix it and repaint it.  So, I went to the paint store and got a quart of silver jade paint.  But when I painted the trunk lid, it looked much more silver, less green, than the rest of the car.  Apparently the color was not quite the same as the original color.

The guy at the paint shop said that he had a color analyzer gun that would match any paint, so rather than stick the trunk lid back on there with a big mismatch I unbolted the front valance panel from the car, and brought it in to the paint shop.  The gun the guy had used a round rubber seal that he pressed up against the valance panel, and when he pulled the trigger I guess a light turns on inside the seal and some kind of an electronic device looks at the paint.  The gun gave a digital readout that the guy was able to convert to a paint formula.  He mixed me up a quart and off I went to repaint the trunk lid.  Bottom line though was even though the paint was much closer, it still wasn't a perfect match to the rest of the paint on the car.  It still looks a little too silver, without enough green in it.  Hmmmmm...

After getting my Shelby clone painted this summer I continued my mad thrash to try to make it to Drag Week.  At first I thought the paint looked great, but after a few weeks of looking at it I began to get the feeling that it wasn't quite what I wanted.  It was close, but not quite right.  The color seemed too light to me.  Not that it doesn't look great, because it does, but as mentioned earlier I'm fussy about this.  I tried to confirm this feeling over the weekend.  When I first got going on this project I did a search on the internet for 69 Shelby's painted Gulfstream Aqua, and found several cars that looked just the way I wanted mine to look.  This weekend I pulled up those pictures, and some pictures of my car, and compared the colors.  See the photos below:





See the difference?  The real Gulfstream Aqua car is darker blue than mine.  This almost ruins the car for me, because its not the color I wanted; I wanted the color shown in the bottom photograph.  I'm seriously considering repainting my car.  The problem, of course, is matching the color I want.  I had taken the paint code to the paint store (a different store than what I used for the Mach 1), but the paint they mixed for me was wrong, at least based on my memory of what Gulfstream Aqua looks like, and the other pictures of cars I found painted that color on the internet.

So here is my question:  Why is this happening?  Is this inaccuracies when the paint is mixed?  I wonder if the paint companies have taken paint codes that are close and combined them to make their jobs easier?  (The reason I mention this is that I had a Ditzler coder for Gulfstream Aqua, but according to the paint store guy the color was no longer available from Ditzler, and he had to get it using their lower cost Omni paint line instead).  Is my only option to spray a test panel and try to adjust the color from there?  That would be a questionable approach to me, although I'm willing to try it. 

If I decide to repaint my Shelby clone I'm going to need to make sure the color is right before I spray, and in addition my Mach 1 is approaching the time where it will need paint, and I want to make sure it's right also.  Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.  Thanks, Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 01:40:36 PM »
Quote
Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.  Thanks, Jay
screw painting it.... spend the money to make the car faster and engine run better.


the end.
Dp

country63sedan

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 05:51:37 PM »
I'm a big fan of blue, I own five blue vehicles right now. In pictures, I like the color in the second picture. If I were looking at both cars in the daylight, I might feel differently. I don't think I personally would repaint it unless there were a flaw in the quality. Sorry to say it, but you are probably on your own with this decision.
     Later, Travis

jayb

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 08:39:25 PM »
Quote
Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.  Thanks, Jay
screw painting it.... spend the money to make the car faster and engine run better.


the end.
Dp

Fixing the problems with the car and making it run to its potential is the primary objective, and is in the plan anyway.  The repaint would be additional to that, if I decide to go ahead with it.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 09:16:34 PM »
Jay I'll start with this...I'm not a painter.

I did all the prep work and bought the paint for my Mustang.
When it came time for color I spoke with the guy who would be holding the gun about what products to use and his preferred paint supplier.
What I learned was paint is now a system from the bare surface up.
The color on my car is a Subaru color called Blue Effect.It is a semi transparent,candy like,in the application instructions it calls out the shade of primer/sealure from a scale of 1-5 and how many Full color coats to lay down to get a match to the sample. In my case we used #5 surfacer and 3 Full coats.
The car was painted in pieces with the fender end caps and headlight extension done last,well we ran low on paint,or I should say the painter did.When the light hits my right rear fender extention just so it has a green hue.Under inside lighting you cant tell but outside it gets a little trick to it...That extension only had 2 coats,he ran out of paint 1 piece short. I would have had to buy another full qt. but I let it go.

I also learned that to get the closest match to the paint chips you have to use the manufactures "better" product lines.

IIRC Omni is a lower end DuPont or PPG line.

In the end you will most likely have to do test sprays to be 100% sure on the color.If you do go that way make sure you use the correct tone of sealer under it.
Lance H

machoneman

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 01:26:08 PM »
No painter here either but...you may want to talk to these folks in 'Nawlins.

http://www.automotivetouchup.com/auto_paint.asp

They specialize in matching old & new OEM paints in small-to-large quantities. When I bitched to a local AutoZone rep last year about the very limited Duplicolor selections they had on-hand to touch up my '88 5.0 Stang, he mentioned this outfit as Duplicolor no longer carried my car's paint code.

Great match btw in small bottle size and I've recommended same to other rodders.  Can't hurt to talk. 
Bob Maag

GJCAT427

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2011, 05:58:11 AM »
Jay my experance with paint has been the under coat color. Is you want it to be darker use a dark primer such as black or red. If you want lighter go with gray or white. I use Dupont systems and follow there recomendations. I used Omni on one of my GTOs and was not happy with the coverage, it was like spraying water and it wound up tranparent. After a resand and reshoot it came out better. This was a base/clear coat system. Omni is a Ditzler low end product, it was cheaper and not as good as the upper end product.  Also the sealer has the same effect on topcoats. My 56 F1oo is base/clear from dupont, Ihad one panel that is lifhter under shop lights, but in the out side light you can`t see the difference.

machoneman

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 07:49:27 AM »
That's a great point that GJCAT427 raises. IIRC, the base primer was light gray. Maybe a quickee test on a spare chunk of sheetmetal, one side with a black undercoat and the other with dark gray primer or undercoat, then the current paint applied. This would prove if the topcoat was 'off' or the base colors made the topcoat too much of a light blue.
 
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 10:28:11 AM »
I've heard of the coverage issue with the Omni paint before; my pal Steve had that issue when he painted his daughter's car orange.  I didn't really notice it with this paint though, but just in case I did spray three full wet coats.  Good suggestion on the primer color, though; I used K-36 as a sealer before the paint, and it is white.  I might try a test panel using white, gray, and dark gray primer colors just to see what the differences are...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Hemi Joel

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 11:44:40 AM »
...when he pulled the trigger I guess a light turns on inside the seal and some kind of an electronic device looks at the paint... 

OK, who stole Jays computer and typed this... I know it wasn't the electronic engineer Proffesor Brown. It sounds like something I would have typed.

Here is what the real Jay Brown would have said; " When he pulled the trigger, a 4.40 volt killostropic LED illuminated the paint, broadcasting an alproblistiph image to a 128 band color spectrometer, which uses an acute scalene algorithm to interpet the data into a recognizable combination of pigement formuli. I confirmed the data by temporarily connecting my own array of zener diodes to my old disco strobe and patched it into my dyno software, which has been confirmed to be accurate"   :D

Kerry j

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 10:54:59 PM »
LOL!!!  :D

jayb

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2011, 09:15:24 AM »
I am impressed, Captain Stabbin', I didn't figure that you knew what a killostropic LED was, much less an alproblistiph image!  I will have to start being more technical in my posts... ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2011, 11:26:04 PM »

TorinoBP88

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As stated several posts above, i agree about primer color and transparancy.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2011, 12:38:28 AM »
The transparancy of the color coat will be effected by what is below it.  Now that the car is painted, you might actually find that shooting the first of the next two or three coats to be a bit darker blue, the top coat with the color you have. The darker color will shine thought, especially when lit with sun.  Im sure there is several ways to skin this cat.

There are sure several short comings of modern paint mixing.

Why could the painter not get PPG in the color you want? 

Your car looks great, BTW, but i do agree, side by side, i would choose the more rich blue.

plovett

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Re: Paint Conundrum
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2011, 06:21:37 AM »
I wouldn't mess with the paint.  It looks great.  It's not like the car is a concours restoration so it doesn't have to match anything.   Though I understand if just like a slightly different shade of aqua.

If I were going to go to all the trouble of changing it, I'd repaint it in Lime Gold.

JMO, 

paulie