0.016 cylinder wall thickness - Will sleeving save it?

[Matthias390]

Hello from Germany,

my machine shop measured the cylinder wall thicknesses of my 390 FE block before starting to work on it.
The thinnest spot he measured is 0,4mm (0.016"). Cylinder 4, thrust side, adjacent to the freeze plug. Other spots on cylinders 1, 2 and 3 are around 1,2mm (0.047").
Cylinders 5, 6, 7 & 8 all have thin spots at around 1,8mm (0.071").
He said this is due to core shift and heavy rust in the coolant passage.

The block is standard size 4.050.
Target bore is 4.080, already bought new pistons and rings for 4.080

Goal for the motor is:
Torquey truck engine, max rpm around 5500

• 9,5 - 10,0 compression
• New Forged Sealed Power pistons
• New Molnar rods
• New Edelbrock aluminum heads
• New Roller cam from @blykins
• New Roller rockers from @blykins
  
• New Performer RPM intake
  
• New Headers
  
• Crank is 0.01 under and has been straightened and meticulously balanced with and without damper/flex plate
  

I have already bought ALL the parts, everything, spent well over 10.000$ in parts already (remember I have to have everything shipped to Germany and pay German VAT and import taxes) and budget is getting thin.

• The block has all the oil mods (by myself)
• The block has already received a line hone for the mains (@ a different machine shop)

My goal is perfection. I am 52 years old and intend to never open this engine ever again once it is finished. Do it once, do it right.
Boring/honing will be done with a boring plate.

Considering all this:
Does sleeving the block make sense?

My current machine shop (does only American V8s, nothing else) has never done sleeving and is sceptical.
He won't do it because he has never done it before.

Another machine shop, also specialized in American, V8s, specifically Ford, told me on the phone that doing 8 sleeves is absolutely no problem, has done it many times before, never an issue. Even on race engines for historic motorsport (Cobras, GT40s, Mustangs) well over 500HP, no issue.
He would put 8 sleeves in my block for reasonable money.
He said something about sleeve wall thickness of 5mm (about 0.197")
I asked him if it wouldn't be a problem that the sleeves will partially be in coolant and partially not: He said "No problem"
I asked him if the block will distort again during sleeving process, hence destroy the line honing of my main bearings: "No problem"

I am sceptical. What is your opinion?

Please keep in mind that finding a spare block in Germany/Europe is not so easy. Currently there is only 1 FE block in standard bore being offered, rough condition, the guy wants 1.600€ (about 1.900$ !!) and I don't know if this block is cracked, and how thick thy cylinder walls are.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks guys.

best regards
Matthias

[My427stang]

I am skeptical of the sonic check, that's thinner than any 390 I have ever seen, even bored.

Any way you can get another machine on it?

[jayb]

I also would not trust those sonic check numbers.  I have never seen any FE block with numbers that thin.  Perhaps buy a cheap sonic tester and do it yourself?  Here's one on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201134359545?_skw=ultrasonic+thickness+tester&itmmeta=01KDQNPZXE863S954HWJBQN4PQ&hash=item2ed48ac3f9:g:32gAAOSwGvhT0Lxc&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1e1me7yinCBRyR3Jx0%2B0EKduEuterQjTPpp6glalR3K%2FqnlV1Oi6xvE%2Fvs7GhIAX7VzriH7YwbrjDdDkOIhLRMzRuWqY5%2BToR6KBBgDJZh351fhdtoMY43lAHeuk%2BGR6ijjjibAhmYiSMLcj4E0A9L2zB%2BJbRLcg5A8rTYZRiB3qx5U9PDCdirwxvayxEwrviZlsstkMdVRSbDjjGjiBkhIZAmbyPeIeC04bgNenIiwXRKpA%2FU2BDRg1zpQsmf3rnk%3D%7Ctkp%3ABlBMUPT-2_XtZg

If you do this, you will have to carefully round the transducer so that it conforms to the shape of the cylinder bore.  A few minutes with a file will do it.

Regarding sleeving 8 cylinders, this is a VERY bad idea.  The shop who told you that probably doesn't have experience doing that with FEs.  Sleeving adjacent cylinders will result in cracks at the deck between the bores after a few thousand miles, and the resultant coolant leaks.  Sleeves are fine as long as they are confined to an individual cylinder, not two cylinders next to each other.

[e philpott]

I'm having a hard believing .016 thickness too

[428kidd]

No way is sonic checker is correct. Time for a recalculate .

[Matthias390]

Thanks so far.

I am with you. .016 sounds radically thin, one should almost be able to push it in with a finger.
Engine builder sounded pretty bewildered, too, when he told me about it on the phone. He said it is by a very large margin the thinnest cylinder he has measured in his career.
He claimed he double checked the calibration of his device twice.
I attached the pictures he sent me. Measurements in the second picture are metric, in mm, of course.
He stopped measuring bank 1 in more detail after he discovered the ultra-thin spot.

I remember seeing and removing the thick rust in the coolant passage. I attached a few pictures from the day I disassembled the block.
Had I known earlier, that Ford blocks are cast particularly thin per se, my alarm bells would have rung right then and there, but since I'm new to Ford, I didn't know.

I take away so far:

• Sleeving all 8 is a no go. That was also my personal feeling.
• Triple check the sonic measurement, maybe I can get away with sleeving only #4

[mike7570]

Take a vacation to the US and find a 390 block you can use. Build a wood box around it and ship back to Germany. (May be stuck in customs for awhile)
Probably wouldn’t cost much more than the asking price for that other block and you get a vacation as a bonus!

[Matthias390]

Take a vacation to the US and find a 390 block you can use. Build a wood box around it and ship back to Germany. (May be stuck in customs for awhile)
Probably wouldn’t cost much more than the asking price for that other block and you get a vacation as a bonus!

Not an unreasonable idea.
Against it speak:
I don't have a suitable amount of free days from work until maybe September.
I don't want to (can't) spent that kind of money. Neither for a used block in Germany nor for a vacation with block-purchase ;-)

[1964Fastback]

Are there any American car clubs around there?  I had similar, reverse problems in the 90s working and restoring my '71 Westphalia camper bus.  The local VW club was helpful pointing me towards mechanics and sometimes "unofficial" junkyards of people that had a lot of parts.  This was before the Internet, though, so it might be less useful now, with everyone online.

Another technique is to look for ads of people selling rusted, wrecked cars or trucks, especially less desirable models.  They may be priced cheap enough that if they have a decent engine you can use, you can just throw the rest of the car away.

Pat

[oldiron.fe]

   get a good media blast to clean the water jacket well - even two times if necessary- only way to get a really good sonic test- watch for salt water use or chemicals in water--could be real odd chemical reaction-- media clean should not effect line hone--- good luck--possible good block ship from u.s.--military service member move-or?? good 352 us block--john

[Rory428]

If the cylinders were indeed that thin, I couldn`t imagine that engine wouldn`t have split all the cylinder walls in normal use. Or how they could all possibly so thin at 4.05" standard bore, unless maybe it was a boat engine that was using salt water cooling, and that ate away more of the cylinder walls from the backside. Many years ago, when I worked at an engine shop, we had a Chevy 11 style 4 cylinder engine (Think 194 6 cylinder missing 2 cylinders), that was a boat engine, that was getting coolant in the oil. When the water pump was removed, you see pinholes that went completely thru the cylinder walls.

[Matthias390]

Are there any American car clubs around there?  I had similar, reverse problems in the 90s working and restoring my '71 Westphalia camper bus.  The local VW club was helpful pointing me towards mechanics and sometimes "unofficial" junkyards of people that had a lot of parts.  This was before the Internet, though, so it might be less useful now, with everyone online.

Another technique is to look for ads of people selling rusted, wrecked cars or trucks, especially less desirable models.  They may be priced cheap enough that if they have a decent engine you can use, you can just throw the rest of the car away.

Pat

Yes, there is a healthy US-car scene here in Germany/Europe. But since I consider you guys here, especially with people of the like of Jay or Brent being active in this forum, a lot more knowledgable and experienced with your own stuff, I rather asked here first for opinions and advice.
I have contacts in Germany who are already on the lookout for a new old block for me over here, but it may take a while until something pops up.

Buyinf an entire car/truck just for the engine is not an option: Space issue and even cars to be parted out are more expensive over here. And: if the engine is still complete and mounted inside a vehicle, it is next to impossible to measure the block precisely to avoid buying another boat anchor.

[Matthias390]

If the cylinders were indeed that thin, I couldn`t imagine that engine wouldn`t have split all the cylinder walls in normal use. Or how they could all possibly so thin at 4.05" standard bore, unless maybe it was a boat engine that was using salt water cooling, and that ate away more of the cylinder walls from the backside. Many years ago, when I worked at an engine shop, we had a Chevy 11 style 4 cylinder engine (Think 194 6 cylinder missing 2 cylinders), that was a boat engine, that was getting coolant in the oil. When the water pump was removed, you see pinholes that went completely thru the cylinder walls.

My machinist and I are both evenly amazed about how this engine did not crack.
He calibrated his ultrasonic device twice (on an old sleeve he has laying around). It has a rounded probe.
I took it out of an unmolested, original, bone stock 1970 F100 that we bought in Oregon and had shipped to Germany. Casting numbers however, indicate it is a 1972 block (and heads). Untracable if this engine was maybe used in a boat. But I consider it unlikely. Engine was bone stock. Even the rod and main bearings had the FORD stamping in them.
The truck it came out of is in pretty good condition, bed has almost full original paint in it, but a hitch and trailer brake was installed, so maybe a lot of towing? Noone knows.

[FrozenMerc]

I hope he didn't try to measure the cylinder walls with all that schmoo in the cooling jackets.  That would certainly lead to the very erratic readings shown.  Have them hot tank and clean the block first, then remeasure.  Use a piece of pipe with a known wall thickness, say 100 mm OD with a 3 mm wall to check the calibration on the sonic tester. 

[Matthias390]

I hope he didn't try to measure the cylinder walls with all that schmoo in the cooling jackets.  That would certainly lead to the very erratic readings shown.  Have them hot tank and clean the block first, then remeasure.  Use a piece of pipe with a known wall thickness, say 100 mm OD with a 3 mm wall to check the calibration on the sonic tester.

No, like a wrote a post above yours, he calibrated his device on an old sleeve.

The pictures you see above were taken by me 1 minute after I removed the freeze plugs.
Since then, I scratched and "chiseled" out all lose rust, durt and grime I could reach, blew it out with compressed air and washed the whole thing intensively with a pressure washer, holding it in the cooling jackets for minutes. The block is now, that he has it in his shop, as clean as it gets.