Old Timey 427 SO Build question for Jay

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Jay,

I bought your book and want to say thanks for giving a big shot in the arm for the FE.  Here in CA, machine shops don't really know much about FE's and always recommend an LS installation no matter what you have.  In 1981 I built my first FE, a 427 SO with a 428 crank with some left over stroker parts from a co-worker named Mark Koker who ironically enough won the Car Craft supercar showdown in the Sept '81 issue.  We painted the front fender on that 68.5 CJ Mustang the night before the photo shoot with a rattle can .  I worked for Chris Kaufman (whole 'nother story) at Advanced Engineering in Downey, CA and alongside Mark who was a big FE fan and buried his nose in a flow bench most days.  I have been hooked ever since I put that engine in my basket case '67 GT500, which I'm still hunting down to this day. 

Life and the man upstairs has thrown me some gimmies and I'm lucky enough to be playing with several FE's and would like to know if you would be able to assist me in my builds, not of course all here on this thread but I do have some starter questions;

If you were to build a fun street engine (it will go in a '67 Shelby most likely, that really belonged on the track and didn't need to go to far) would you use a TP top end or HR ?  I have both setups and want to stay with the real 427 stroke in this cast iron beast but don't have a problem protecting it with H beam rods and lighter pistons and some tricks here and there.  I would like to run as much Comp and Cam as I can get away with and don't mind running race fuel if necessary but would love to keep it on pump gas if at all possible. 

I read through your dyno session with Rob's TP and wondered how hard it would be to attain those numbers for a non specific use engine, just a street terrorizer.  What do you think ??

[cammerfe]

I'm obviously not Jay, but I'll give you my three cents worth---(inflation!):

For 'wow' factor from knowledgeable people, the TP is the way to go. The drawback is that the TP combo is not nearly so well researched as the HR and, from my own experience, you'll need to use a dual-plane manifold for best street manners. (The fact that you are using the TP parts will always be a conversation-starter when at a cruise-in!)

Both Dove and BT make 'most-modern-design' High Riser pieces. And with Dove, you can 'mix-'n'-match' features to tailor your engine to suit yourself. You may have hood-clearance issues which may be a concern depending on your end-combination.

In the end, you 'pays-your-money-and-takes-your-choice'. It'll be an FE---it'll make more power than you can use without insanity---what's not to like?

KS

[jayb]

Sounds like a fun deal.  Regarding tunnel port vs high riser, if you are sticking with the stock 427 stroke you will be cubic inch limited, so I would stay with the high riser.  As a street engine you won't be winding it to the moon on a regular basis and the high riser ports are going to give you a lot more midrange than the tunnel port setup will.  Why are you sticking with the stock stroke, by the way?  If you could crank up the cubes with a 4.25" or 4.375" stroke crankshaft, either head combination would be streetable and it would be a lot easier to get to 700 HP.

Assuming you have your reasons for staying with the stock stroke, another reason to stay with the high riser is the dual plane intakes.  That would be a strong street combination.  There are dual planes available for the tunnel port but they are harder to find than the single plane tunnel wedge style.

I think you could put together a stock stroke combination that would run on pump gas and make 600 HP with the high riser heads and intake, a good roller cam, and compression around 11:1.  The 427 sideoiler dyno mule I did for my book was like that.  To get to 700 you would need a more radical cam, lots of headwork, and more compression, and you may not be able to get the engine to run on pump gas.  But you could certainly get to 700 HP.

Just for interest, here's an overview of the combination I ran in my Mach 1 in 2005 at Drag Week; the engine was 511" and made 706 HP at 6300 RPM on the dyno.  It ran no problem on pump gas, although I did use race gas at the track for safety margin reasons.  I put about 2500 miles on it going to and from Drag Week, and during the event:

Shelby aluminum block, 4.375" bore
Scat 4.25" stroke crank
Crower billet rods, BBC, 6.700" center to center, BBC pin
Diamond pistons, 11.5:1
Comp roller cam, Xtreme Energy street roller lobes, 266/272 @ .050", .701/.711 lift, 110 LSA
Crower solid roller lifters
Smith Bros. pushrods
Edelbrock medium riser heads, ported to flow 335@.700" lift on the intake
Edelbrock Victor intake
Dominator 1150 carb
Hooker adjustable race headers, modified to improve ground clearance

I also ran a C4 with a 5000 stall converter, and a 4.11 Detroit locker rear end.  The car ran 10.60s all week at Drag Week 2005.  When I got back I hung a vacuum pump on the engine and ran 10.45 at a local track.

Good luck on the project - Jay

[afret]

I think I remember that Koker Mustang.  He said he had a NHRA cheater cam in his 428 at the Terminal Island track.  Car ran pretty well.  I think that was back in the mid to late 70's.

[blykins]

It's certainly easier to get the horsepower out of the big inch motors.  However, I've done (4) 482-487ci FE's in the past 6 weeks and I understand when guys want something a little different.  So if they're willing to go past the "normal" street build and spin the engine up a little bit, the smaller strokes can work out. 

However....hitting 700hp with 427 cubes would take a lot of specialized parts and experience.  At 1.64 hp/ci, the normal street parts won't cut it.   

If I could offer a suggestion, there are a couple of 3.980" stroke crankshafts out that you can buy.  Scat makes a cast crank in that stroke, and RPM makes a steel crank in that stroke.  In using that crank, you still have the sense of a factory Ford combo and the extra cubes will absorb some of the velocity and port volume issues with the TP heads.  To hit 700hp with that bore/stroke combination would still be an undertaking in my opinion.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports

[fetorino]

Don't forget E85.  Even here in CA it is available pretty easy.  It's cheap and will let you run as much compression as you want.  I gave up some hp keeping the compression low enough for the raged edge of pump gas.  When I switched to E85 Blair found some more hp and torque.  If I had done 12 or 13 to 1 (which E85 would easily tolerate) and left everything else the same guess what more power.

I'd stick with the dual quad single plane TP and give yourself some inches.  I know you said stock stroke but If 700hp is your goal then get a steel stroker crank and some crower rods and she will last a good long time.

I believe my motor will be every bit as streetable as you are describing.

Contact Blair Patrick.  My TP heads flowed better avg numbers and better midrange than a lot of HR stuff.  The unkown is what you loose from the rod in the intake.  The dyno says not much.

I think Blair taught himself some more about big inch TPs with my build.  I know he could lead you to 700hp with those heads with ease.  Heck he already proved that. 

[jayb]

It's interesting that E85 has pretty much disappeared from the pumps here in Minnesota over the last year.  For a while you were seeing more and more stations with it, and I was considering building a motor just for E85, but then poof!  It was gone, at least from all the stations that I normally frequent.  Glad to hear it is still available in CA; I wonder how available it is elsewhere?

[cammerfe]

E85locator.net shows 263 stations in Minnesota. Unfortunately there's no date readily evident. But it'd be a good place to start if you were to be impelled in that direction!

My own approach is to run best pump gas and spray methanol when conditions require. A Hobbs switch makes a good trigger.

KS

[mike7570]

BigBlueOvalFan, when you worked for CK was there a primer '67 mustang coupe on blocks outside the shop? I bought that car from him and put a tunnel port in it. (my first race car)
It would have been actually streetable as built and it would go 10.50 at the track. I ended up moving up to super gas and a lighter '69 fastback with that engine and stroked it to 452ci. It was a low 9 sec. car. I ran it in various combos from single dominator to two 660's. I regularly raced with Wes Johnson who was running a high riser at the time and the tunnel port would preform as well with a slightly milder combination.
For comparison to what you want to do here is my original build and performance -
'67 mustang coupe 3,200lb
4.56 gear 10.5x29.5 tire with ladder bars
427ci side oiler, stock pistons (about 12-1), stock NASCAR rods, stock stroke $$crank,
stock tunnel port heads, stock ford adjustable valve train, stock 8v single plane intake (2 660 Holleys)
cam .577 lift (unknown duration, was h/m reground on stock cam)
Hooker adjustable race headers, Mallory ignition. 12 initial + 28 mechanical total 40*
Art Car C-6 3500 stall
Ran NHRA super street 10.90 index best performance 10.50 at Freemont Raceway.
Mike
 

[garyv]

BigBlueOval I like the way you think.
just don't get stuck on a HP number and build this thing.
You might have to wind it up a little but isn't that what 427's were supposed to do?
Like Brent suggested you will need a good crank and rods, I'd do a 3.98 stroke. that's still a "Ford"
stroke, run some compression with race gas.
Get those Tunnel ports flowed and see where they are at, port them some if needed and cam accordingly.
solid flat tappet, none of them juice cams. were talk'n old school here.
you have the intake and carbs.
Good race headers and let er rip.
Now that is old school stuff.
If you end up like mike and have a car that will run in the 10's as a street machine it will be a terror.
that's my take.
garyv

[BigBlueOvalFan]

I'm obviously not Jay, but I'll give you my three cents worth---(inflation!):

For 'wow' factor from knowledgeable people, the TP is the way to go. The drawback is that the TP combo is not nearly so well researched as the HR and, from my own experience, you'll need to use a dual-plane manifold for best street manners. (The fact that you are using the TP parts will always be a conversation-starter when at a cruise-in!)

Both Dove and BT make 'most-modern-design' High Riser pieces. And with Dove, you can 'mix-'n'-match' features to tailor your engine to suit yourself. You may have hood-clearance issues which may be a concern depending on your end-combination.

In the end, you 'pays-your-money-and-takes-your-choice'. It'll be an FE---it'll make more power than you can use without insanity---what's not to like?

KS

Thanks for chiming in KS, I appreciate the feedback.  I hear what your saying about the TP but I'm not much of a car show guy and kind of just enjoy the car all to myself.  Sounds selfish I know but maybe I'll change my mind once it's on the road.  I just want to tear up some of the rice burners in my area with some old school iron.  The Dove, BT and other manufacturers out there are doing a great job breathing new life into the FE and giving great choices but I want to build something that would have been put together pre 1984 before all the new stuff came out, just for kicks and a ride down memory lane.  Thanks again for your input. Jim

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Sounds like a fun deal.  Regarding tunnel port vs high riser, if you are sticking with the stock 427 stroke you will be cubic inch limited, so I would stay with the high riser.  As a street engine you won't be winding it to the moon on a regular basis and the high riser ports are going to give you a lot more midrange than the tunnel port setup will.  Why are you sticking with the stock stroke, by the way?  If you could crank up the cubes with a 4.25" or 4.375" stroke crankshaft, either head combination would be streetable and it would be a lot easier to get to 700 HP.

Assuming you have your reasons for staying with the stock stroke, another reason to stay with the high riser is the dual plane intakes.  That would be a strong street combination.  There are dual planes available for the tunnel port but they are harder to find than the single plane tunnel wedge style.

I think you could put together a stock stroke combination that would run on pump gas and make 600 HP with the high riser heads and intake, a good roller cam, and compression around 11:1.  The 427 sideoiler dyno mule I did for my book was like that.  To get to 700 you would need a more radical cam, lots of headwork, and more compression, and you may not be able to get the engine to run on pump gas.  But you could certainly get to 700 HP.

Just for interest, here's an overview of the combination I ran in my Mach 1 in 2005 at Drag Week; the engine was 511" and made 706 HP at 6300 RPM on the dyno.  It ran no problem on pump gas, although I did use race gas at the track for safety margin reasons.  I put about 2500 miles on it going to and from Drag Week, and during the event:

Shelby aluminum block, 4.375" bore
Scat 4.25" stroke crank
Crower billet rods, BBC, 6.700" center to center, BBC pin
Diamond pistons, 11.5:1
Comp roller cam, Xtreme Energy street roller lobes, 266/272 @ .050", .701/.711 lift, 110 LSA
Crower solid roller lifters
Smith Bros. pushrods
Edelbrock medium riser heads, ported to flow 335@.700" lift on the intake
Edelbrock Victor intake
Dominator 1150 carb
Hooker adjustable race headers, modified to improve ground clearance

I also ran a C4 with a 5000 stall converter, and a 4.11 Detroit locker rear end.  The car ran 10.60s all week at Drag Week 2005.  When I got back I hung a vacuum pump on the engine and ran 10.45 at a local track.

Good luck on the project - Jay

Jay,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I'm sticking with the stock bore because I want to replicate something that could have been built pre 1984.  I have a couple big aluminum FE's and see how they make big power easily.  I want to know what it was like to have a real 427 HR or TP back in the day and on the street.  When I built my motor, I wanted to go that way but everyone kept telling me that a HR was un-streetable.

Besides the TP & HR heads, I have a 1x4 dual plane intake for the HR and a 2x4 dual plane for the TP.  I will acquire a 2x4 dual plane for the HR if you think it would help with the power.

I think what I'm hearing is that the HR setup is the way to go for this street application.  I get that the trade off for big compression is expensive race fuel vs pump gas.  What do you think about the E85 and would that allow me to run the big compression ?  I really want to replicate something that would have been built back in the late 70's, early 80's and something that really belongs on the track.  This car is not going too far, I have other vehicles for that.

I think your car running mid 10's is impressive.  I know it was really impressive back in the day just to get our cars in the mid to low 12's.

I don't mind cutting into either top ends to make big power, can you recommend anyone that would take care of the porting/matching ?  Could you also recommend a cam profile, rods and pistons that you would use if it were your build ?  Thanks for all your assistance. 


Thanks, Jim

[BigBlueOvalFan]

I think I remember that Koker Mustang.  He said he had a NHRA cheater cam in his 428 at the Terminal Island track.  Car ran pretty well.  I think that was back in the mid to late 70's.

Afret,

He had a little more than just a cheater cam in that engine.  Mark was a engineering major at Poly Tech and really dove down deep into the engineering aspects of the car.  He made quite a bit of money picking street races at the burger joint off of Whittier Blvd back in the day. I knew Mark in the early 80's and after he built the HR for that car, it seemed no one could touch that thing.  Great memories !!!

[BigBlueOvalFan]

It's certainly easier to get the horsepower out of the big inch motors.  However, I've done (4) 482-487ci FE's in the past 6 weeks and I understand when guys want something a little different.  So if they're willing to go past the "normal" street build and spin the engine up a little bit, the smaller strokes can work out. 

However....hitting 700hp with 427 cubes would take a lot of specialized parts and experience.  At 1.64 hp/ci, the normal street parts won't cut it.   

If I could offer a suggestion, there are a couple of 3.980" stroke crankshafts out that you can buy.  Scat makes a cast crank in that stroke, and RPM makes a steel crank in that stroke.  In using that crank, you still have the sense of a factory Ford combo and the extra cubes will absorb some of the velocity and port volume issues with the TP heads.  To hit 700hp with that bore/stroke combination would still be an undertaking in my opinion.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports

Brent,

Thanks for your experience and advice.  I understand what your saying about the bigger cu engines but I want to replicate the feel of what we could have built back pre 1984.  I also want the short stroke so I can wind this thing up a bit. 

What would you recommend for cam profile, compression, top end (porting or no), etc.  I would really like to know what you think.  Even if I don't attain the 700hp number, it's what I would like to shoot for.  Thanks, Jim

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Don't forget E85.  Even here in CA it is available pretty easy.  It's cheap and will let you run as much compression as you want.  I gave up some hp keeping the compression low enough for the raged edge of pump gas.  When I switched to E85 Blair found some more hp and torque.  If I had done 12 or 13 to 1 (which E85 would easily tolerate) and left everything else the same guess what more power.

I'd stick with the dual quad single plane TP and give yourself some inches.  I know you said stock stroke but If 700hp is your goal then get a steel stroker crank and some crower rods and she will last a good long time.

I believe my motor will be every bit as streetable as you are describing.

Contact Blair Patrick.  My TP heads flowed better avg numbers and better midrange than a lot of HR stuff.  The unkown is what you loose from the rod in the intake.  The dyno says not much.

I think Blair taught himself some more about big inch TPs with my build.  I know he could lead you to 700hp with those heads with ease.  Heck he already proved that. 

fetorino,

Thanks for responding, especially about the E85.  That is exactly what I wanted to hear, I'd like 13:1 if I can get away with it.  I really want to stick with what we would have been limited to back in the 70's/80's and I want to experience that short stroke of the original 427.

I've heard some nasty things about E85 and it's ability to wreak havoc on the fuel system and it's components.  Can you speak to that ??  Also, did you try a HR setup on your build ?  Just for comparison sake.

Lastly, do you have Blair's contact info ?  Thanks, Jim