Old Timey 427 SO Build question for Jay

[BigBlueOvalFan]

BigBlueOvalFan, when you worked for CK was there a primer '67 mustang coupe on blocks outside the shop? I bought that car from him and put a tunnel port in it. (my first race car)
It would have been actually streetable as built and it would go 10.50 at the track. I ended up moving up to super gas and a lighter '69 fastback with that engine and stroked it to 452ci. It was a low 9 sec. car. I ran it in various combos from single dominator to two 660's. I regularly raced with Wes Johnson who was running a high riser at the time and the tunnel port would preform as well with a slightly milder combination.
For comparison to what you want to do here is my original build and performance -
'67 mustang coupe 3,200lb
4.56 gear 10.5x29.5 tire with ladder bars
427ci side oiler, stock pistons (about 12-1), stock NASCAR rods, stock stroke $$crank,
stock tunnel port heads, stock ford adjustable valve train, stock 8v single plane intake (2 660 Holleys)
cam .577 lift (unknown duration, was h/m reground on stock cam)
Hooker adjustable race headers, Mallory ignition. 12 initial + 28 mechanical total 40*
Art Car C-6 3500 stall
Ran NHRA super street 10.90 index best performance 10.50 at Freemont Raceway.
Mike
 

Mike,

I worked for CK in the early 80's and only for about a year (I thought it was '81 but in speaking to a long time friend, he seems to think it was closer to '84, I'll have to conduct a little further research on the dates).  I don't remember seeing your car there.  I was there when CK first received the Fox Body Mustang for the Car Craft build up.  The car had manufacturer plates and wee took it from stock to tubed. 

Those numbers for both cars are impressive and give me a ton of hope for my build.  Mid 10's and then to low 9's is lightning fast with a 3200lb vehicle and somewhat stock build.  I'm running a 4 gear in mine. 

What year did you buy your car from CK ?  Also, did you have any further interaction with CK other than the purchase ?

Jim

[BigBlueOvalFan]

BigBlueOval I like the way you think.
just don't get stuck on a HP number and build this thing.
You might have to wind it up a little but isn't that what 427's were supposed to do?
Like Brent suggested you will need a good crank and rods, I'd do a 3.98 stroke. that's still a "Ford"
stroke, run some compression with race gas.
Get those Tunnel ports flowed and see where they are at, port them some if needed and cam accordingly.
solid flat tappet, none of them juice cams. were talk'n old school here.
you have the intake and carbs.
Good race headers and let er rip.
Now that is old school stuff.
If you end up like mike and have a car that will run in the 10's as a street machine it will be a terror.
that's my take.
garyv

Gary,  I agree, if it turns out like Mike's, it would be a Holy Terror !!

I built the 3.980 stroke deal back in the day and it was a great engine but I want the high rev of the shorter stroke and the old school experience of what a real 427 SO HR or TP would have felt like back in the day. I do think I'll protect the bottom end with some quality rods and lighter pistons so it doesn't have to work as hard.  Ultimately, if she blows, I'll patch her back together and go again. Thanks, Jim

[mike7570]

Mike,

I worked for CK in the early 80's and only for about a year (I thought it was '81 but in speaking to a long time friend, he seems to think it was closer to '84, I'll have to conduct a little further research on the dates).  I don't remember seeing your car there.  I was there when CK first received the Fox Body Mustang for the Car Craft build up.  The car had manufacturer plates and wee took it from stock to tubed. 

Those numbers for both cars are impressive and give me a ton of hope for my build.  Mid 10's and then to low 9's is lightning fast with a 3200lb vehicle and somewhat stock build.  I'm running a 4 gear in mine. 

What year did you buy your car from CK ?  Also, did you have any further interaction with CK other than the purchase ?

Jim


Jim, I bought the car in '82 or '83 from Kaufman, it was sitting outside the shop on blocks with no drive train or rear end. I negotiated a deal and had Advance Engineering West put in the 9" and ladder bars. The roll bar was already in it. I purchased the TP from Mickey Thompson at his warehouse in Long Beach, it was a Holman & Moody motor built in '69 for his Bonneville endurance cars. Since Ford provided it to him it had 100% factory parts as available in '69. Leaving it alone I got it into the mid 10's @3200lbs and a best of 9.80 @ 2600lbs.
(kinda sounds like what you are trying to build)
Well after a number of years and 7000rpm shifts it spun a rod bearing and bent the rocker shafts. During the rebuild I sold the heavy NASCAR rods, reground the crank to a BBC journal, bored it .017 over and put on the latest FPP rockers and shafts a .653 276/286 comp cam and changed to a 2 speed power glide. That configuration was good for low 9's over 141 @2,600lb.
I didn't have any port work done on the heads or intake and I took out the sodium filled exhaust valves before I got it running.
I sold it a number of years ago because I was concerned racing was eventually going to lead to a failure and I was afraid I would loose to much of the value in the engine.
(Now with all the great replacement part I wish I still had it.)

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Mike,

I worked for CK in the early 80's and only for about a year (I thought it was '81 but in speaking to a long time friend, he seems to think it was closer to '84, I'll have to conduct a little further research on the dates).  I don't remember seeing your car there.  I was there when CK first received the Fox Body Mustang for the Car Craft build up.  The car had manufacturer plates and wee took it from stock to tubed. 

Those numbers for both cars are impressive and give me a ton of hope for my build.  Mid 10's and then to low 9's is lightning fast with a 3200lb vehicle and somewhat stock build.  I'm running a 4 gear in mine. 

What year did you buy your car from CK ?  Also, did you have any further interaction with CK other than the purchase ?

Jim


Jim, I bought the car in '82 or '83 from Kaufman, it was sitting outside the shop on blocks with no drive train or rear end. I negotiated a deal and had Advance Engineering West put in the 9" and ladder bars. The roll bar was already in it. I purchased the TP from Mickey Thompson at his warehouse in Long Beach, it was a Holman & Moody motor built in '69 for his Bonneville endurance cars. Since Ford provided it to him it had 100% factory parts as available in '69. Leaving it alone I got it into the mid 10's @3200lbs and a best of 9.80 @ 2600lbs.
(kinda sounds like what you are trying to build)
Well after a number of years and 7000rpm shifts it spun a rod bearing and bent the rocker shafts. During the rebuild I sold the heavy NASCAR rods, reground the crank to a BBC journal, bored it .017 over and put on the latest FPP rockers and shafts a .653 276/286 comp cam and changed to a 2 speed power glide. That configuration was good for low 9's over 141 @2,600lb.
I didn't have any port work done on the heads or intake and I took out the sodium filled exhaust valves before I got it running.
I sold it a number of years ago because I was concerned racing was eventually going to lead to a failure and I was afraid I would loose to much of the value in the engine.
(Now with all the great replacement part I wish I still had it.)

Mike,

I can't recall your car there and I would have remembered as I was responsible for making sure all was clean outside and inside around the shop.  I want to say that was the same time frame I was there and I, along with a short fat red head guy with a small beard that drove a 2 door Caliente (can't recall his name right now) would have been the ones to perform the work on your car.  I would have remembered your car and we probably just missed each other by months or weeks. 

What other memories do you have of Advanced Engineering West ??  Was CK still in the original building that wass connected to Velasco ?  You wouldn't happen to remember a '67 dark blue Shelby GT500 with white interior he had outside with no motor or trans that he was selling ?  Or do you remember Mark Koker who had a 68.5 428CJ black fastback (he was tall and skinny and looked kind of gangly) ??  Or maybe Mark's friend that had a '71 boss 351 light blue car ?  How about CK's class AA roadster with the big stroked cleaveland in it ?  Any pictures of the shop or memories that could help us connect the dots, I'm desperately trying to located the '67 GT500 I purchased from him and any memory may help.  Thanks, Jim

[mike7570]

Mike,

I can't recall your car there and I would have remembered as I was responsible for making sure all was clean outside and inside around the shop.  I want to say that was the same time frame I was there and I, along with a short fat red head guy with a small beard that drove a 2 door Caliente (can't recall his name right now) would have been the ones to perform the work on your car.  I would have remembered your car and we probably just missed each other by months or weeks. 

What other memories do you have of Advanced Engineering West ??  Was CK still in the original building that wass connected to Velasco ?  You wouldn't happen to remember a '67 dark blue Shelby GT500 with white interior he had outside with no motor or trans that he was selling ?  Or do you remember Mark Koker who had a 68.5 428CJ black fastback (he was tall and skinny and looked kind of gangly) ??  Or maybe Mark's friend that had a '71 boss 351 light blue car ?  How about CK's class AA roadster with the big stroked cleaveland in it ?  Any pictures of the shop or memories that could help us connect the dots, I'm desperately trying to located the '67 GT500 I purchased from him and any memory may help.  Thanks, Jim
[/quote]

Can't quite figure out how to highlight the quote area?
I don't remember the '67 Shelby, I do remember a red '65 or '66 Shelby he had in the shop. The other cars I may have come across but 30yrs makes it hard to recall specifics. I did have an Advance Engineering West small sticker on the car window when I raced it. Had a couple of FPP decals also. (spent some time at Ron's buying parts and BS)
Good luck finding your old Shelby, I sold mine in '79 for $4500. I can't afford to go looking for it (If it's still around) so I'm building a clone that I plan to race in stock eliminator. (some day)
I usually hit the Pomona swap meet and local races maybe I'll see you around.
Mike

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Mike,

I can't recall your car there and I would have remembered as I was responsible for making sure all was clean outside and inside around the shop.  I want to say that was the same time frame I was there and I, along with a short fat red head guy with a small beard that drove a 2 door Caliente (can't recall his name right now) would have been the ones to perform the work on your car.  I would have remembered your car and we probably just missed each other by months or weeks. 

What other memories do you have of Advanced Engineering West ??  Was CK still in the original building that wass connected to Velasco ?  You wouldn't happen to remember a '67 dark blue Shelby GT500 with white interior he had outside with no motor or trans that he was selling ?  Or do you remember Mark Koker who had a 68.5 428CJ black fastback (he was tall and skinny and looked kind of gangly) ??  Or maybe Mark's friend that had a '71 boss 351 light blue car ?  How about CK's class AA roadster with the big stroked cleaveland in it ?  Any pictures of the shop or memories that could help us connect the dots, I'm desperately trying to located the '67 GT500 I purchased from him and any memory may help.  Thanks, Jim

Can't quite figure out how to highlight the quote area?
I don't remember the '67 Shelby, I do remember a red '65 or '66 Shelby he had in the shop. The other cars I may have come across but 30yrs makes it hard to recall specifics. I did have an Advance Engineering West small sticker on the car window when I raced it. Had a couple of FPP decals also. (spent some time at Ron's buying parts and BS)
Good luck finding your old Shelby, I sold mine in '79 for $4500. I can't afford to go looking for it (If it's still around) so I'm building a clone that I plan to race in stock eliminator. (some day)
I usually hit the Pomona swap meet and local races maybe I'll see you around.
Mike
[/quote]

Mike,

It was worth a shot and fun reminiscing. The red '66 Shelby GT350 was CK's personal car and after it was painted, I did the interior for it and drove it around my hometown Downey, CA for about two weeks.  That GT350 was fairly built with an aluminum flywheel that would spin quickly, very fun to drive.  I think I learned to speed shift on that car but don't tell CK. 

I'm building a couple cars myself so maybe we'll cross paths at some point, thanks for the memories.  If you remember anything and/or come across any pics of Advanced Eng. West shop with your car there or any other cars, please drop me a line I'd love to see them.  Jim

[fetorino]

Don't forget E85.  Even here in CA it is available pretty easy.  It's cheap and will let you run as much compression as you want.  I gave up some hp keeping the compression low enough for the raged edge of pump gas.  When I switched to E85 Blair found some more hp and torque.  If I had done 12 or 13 to 1 (which E85 would easily tolerate) and left everything else the same guess what more power.

I'd stick with the dual quad single plane TP and give yourself some inches.  I know you said stock stroke but If 700hp is your goal then get a steel stroker crank and some crower rods and she will last a good long time.

I believe my motor will be every bit as streetable as you are describing.

Contact Blair Patrick.  My TP heads flowed better avg numbers and better midrange than a lot of HR stuff.  The unkown is what you loose from the rod in the intake.  The dyno says not much.

I think Blair taught himself some more about big inch TPs with my build.  I know he could lead you to 700hp with those heads with ease.  Heck he already proved that. 

fetorino,

Thanks for responding, especially about the E85.  That is exactly what I wanted to hear, I'd like 13:1 if I can get away with it.  I really want to stick with what we would have been limited to back in the 70's/80's and I want to experience that short stroke of the original 427.

I've heard some nasty things about E85 and it's ability to wreak havoc on the fuel system and it's components.  Can you speak to that ??  Also, did you try a HR setup on your build ?  Just for comparison sake.

Lastly, do you have Blair's contact info ?  Thanks, Jim

Jim

Please feel free to call me Rob.

I did not try a HR set up.  My intent from the start of my project was to build a TP.  For reference without the pushrod tube my head flow better on avg and surprisingly better at low and mid lift than some of BPs good HR stuff.

The intake does hurt that some.  Blair can speak better to this than I but with the intake manifold things are pretty even from a head flow perspective.  Blair like the HR intake over the TP but that does come with hood clearance issues.  You could fit a TP under a Mustang hood but a HR with spacers under the carbs, probably not.

The motor Blair did for me was based on some specific goals one of which was sustained high rpm beat downs of road racing. I also wasn't willing to spend the $$ to fix the Ford exhaust ports so my motor is held back because of that.

Speaking out of school because I'm not Blair.  I think if you sent your heads to BP and let him go all in on the exhaust side combined with similar treatment to my intake port then 700hp with a 3.98 stoke isn't a reach with those TP heads.  Since you aren't road racing your car your cam lobes could be more aggressive than what he used for me which along with the improve exhaust flow would get you where you are aiming easier.

It won't be a daily driver but it sure could be streetable.

As far as the fuel system.  With E85 you need 30% more flow so guess what.  Your entire fuel system, lines, pump and pickup will all be new and built for the E85.  I don't have the long term experience to comment further other than I researched E85 and from that research gathered that the guys that run it would call BS on the corrosion piece.

It is worth noting that many oil manufacturers say due to it's high acidic content you should run a high detergent diesel type of oil.

Feel free to e-mail or pm me with any questions.  I think we are both in CA.
Rob

Blair Patrick contact info

captcj@hughes.net
423 eight 3 seven one 5 one 4

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Don't forget E85.  Even here in CA it is available pretty easy.  It's cheap and will let you run as much compression as you want.  I gave up some hp keeping the compression low enough for the raged edge of pump gas.  When I switched to E85 Blair found some more hp and torque.  If I had done 12 or 13 to 1 (which E85 would easily tolerate) and left everything else the same guess what more power.

I'd stick with the dual quad single plane TP and give yourself some inches.  I know you said stock stroke but If 700hp is your goal then get a steel stroker crank and some crower rods and she will last a good long time.

I believe my motor will be every bit as streetable as you are describing.

Contact Blair Patrick.  My TP heads flowed better avg numbers and better midrange than a lot of HR stuff.  The unkown is what you loose from the rod in the intake.  The dyno says not much.

I think Blair taught himself some more about big inch TPs with my build.  I know he could lead you to 700hp with those heads with ease.  Heck he already proved that. 

fetorino,

Thanks for responding, especially about the E85.  That is exactly what I wanted to hear, I'd like 13:1 if I can get away with it.  I really want to stick with what we would have been limited to back in the 70's/80's and I want to experience that short stroke of the original 427.

I've heard some nasty things about E85 and it's ability to wreak havoc on the fuel system and it's components.  Can you speak to that ??  Also, did you try a HR setup on your build ?  Just for comparison sake.

Lastly, do you have Blair's contact info ?  Thanks, Jim

Jim

Please feel free to call me Rob.

I did not try a HR set up.  My intent from the start of my project was to build a TP.  For reference without the pushrod tube my head flow better on avg and surprisingly better at low and mid lift than some of BPs good HR stuff.

The intake does hurt that some.  Blair can speak better to this than I but with the intake manifold things are pretty even from a head flow perspective.  Blair like the HR intake over the TP but that does come with hood clearance issues.  You could fit a TP under a Mustang hood but a HR with spacers under the carbs, probably not.

The motor Blair did for me was based on some specific goals one of which was sustained high rpm beat downs of road racing. I also wasn't willing to spend the $$ to fix the Ford exhaust ports so my motor is held back because of that.

Speaking out of school because I'm not Blair.  I think if you sent your heads to BP and let him go all in on the exhaust side combined with similar treatment to my intake port then 700hp with a 3.98 stoke isn't a reach with those TP heads.  Since you aren't road racing your car your cam lobes could be more aggressive than what he used for me which along with the improve exhaust flow would get you where you are aiming easier.

It won't be a daily driver but it sure could be streetable.

As far as the fuel system.  With E85 you need 30% more flow so guess what.  Your entire fuel system, lines, pump and pickup will all be new and built for the E85.  I don't have the long term experience to comment further other than I researched E85 and from that research gathered that the guys that run it would call BS on the corrosion piece.

It is worth noting that many oil manufacturers say due to it's high acidic content you should run a high detergent diesel type of oil.

Feel free to e-mail or pm me with any questions.  I think we are both in CA.
Rob

Blair Patrick contact info

captcj@hughes.net
423 eight 3 seven one 5 one 4

Rob,

Thanks for the insight.  I really enjoyed watching the dyno sessions for your engine, it gave me inspiration to get to work on my own TP.  I may try the HR setup as well.

I understand the height issue you speak of with the HR setup.  I have a Shelby drag hood fro my '67 that may help with that but will not know until it's in the engine bay.

I'll contact BP to talk about working the TP and HR heads.  What are your thoughts on working a good set of factory TP heads ??  I have my reservations and may look for a set that has had some sort of work already performed and sell these to someone that needs factory un-worked heads.  On the other hand, I'm thinking they are a piece of Ford Racing and deserve to be worked to maximum flow. (sorry, thinking out loud).

I'm glad to hear about the BS on corrosion from E85, it was a concern of mine.  I like the idea of pushing the envelope on the compression to duplicate "back in the day" type build and at the same time use the pumps instead of buying a drum of VP.  Did you have a complete system made for your car ?  If so, do you have any sources for the tank, lines, etc ?

Lastly,  where in CA are you ?  I'm in SoCal, Newport Beach and I think I'm an FE island.  Would love to know of other FE fans in my area.

Thanks for all your time and I look forward to hearing more about your build in the future,

Jim

[mike7570]

Anaheim Hills for me, work in Santa Ana.

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Anaheim Hills for me, work in Santa Ana.

Aw hah, there's one !!  You're not to far from me Mike.

[fetorino]

I'm in Orange CA.

I'm still building the car.  I'm bending all the fuel lines myself and using an ATL fuel cell.

Here are some more details about my car.  It's not very stock.  lol

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=729.0

[BigBlueOvalFan]

I'm in Orange CA.

I'm still building the car.  I'm bending all the fuel lines myself and using an ATL fuel cell.

Here are some more details about my car.  It's not very stock.  lol

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=729.0

Rob,

WOW, now that's a build and quite the journey.  I've always wanted to build a tube chassis car and with some of the same ideas you have in mind.  A car that I can road race with (as I've only raced 1/4 mile), has a big FE that can also find it's way onto the street if I desire.  I love the FB Torino, great styling.  I have a '69 428CJ Mach1 Mustang that the steel termites have had their way with that I'd like to do exactly what you have done with your Torino. 

Even though I know you didn't tackle the frame part of the project, I'd like to pick your brain sometime when you have a moment on how intense the work looked as you watched the shop you hired.  I have plans to build a frame jig for some of my other projects and will try to make it universal so as to allow for pick up points for a full frame as well.

You're are fairly close to me so if you need an extra hand just let me know.  Same goes for you Mike as well.

[fetorino]

Jim

I can use all the help I can get.  Send $$$$$   

I sent you a PM give me a call.  I have learned a lot about Road race chassis design and builds over the past 18 months.  If I was starting today on the build I may take a different approach. although the build quality of the RS chassis is amazing. 

I certainly can share some insight into tackling a project like this if you want.
Did you call Blair yet?

Rob

[BigBlueOvalFan]

Jim

I can use all the help I can get.  Send $$$$$   

I sent you a PM give me a call.  I have learned a lot about Road race chassis design and builds over the past 18 months.  If I was starting today on the build I may take a different approach. although the build quality of the RS chassis is amazing. 

I certainly can share some insight into tackling a project like this if you want.
Did you call Blair yet?

Rob

Rob,

I can use some extra $$$ myself .  Got your PM thanks, I'll give you a call.  I still need to call Blair, I keep forgetting about the time difference.  Insight is what I need, look forward to hearing about what you've learned.

Thanks,  Jim