Author Topic: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.  (Read 3193 times)

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Keith Stevens

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Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« on: June 03, 2021, 08:14:49 PM »
I have had the mustang aligned three times.  The first time the idiot got so heavy-handed he rounded out the lower control arm cam bolts. Needless to say the lower arms were moving.
The second time I took it to a reputable shop recommended by a couple guys with 60's Brand X cars who had success with them.

My 67 has the Arning drop, new upper and lower control arms, strut rod bushings, tie rod ends, 1" lower Global West 635lb springs, perches, and 1/2 Poly spring spacer and Koni shocks.  I had them align the car using the camber locking kit, so I shouldn't have been able to be in a state of negative camber.
Anyone have any guessed? It feathered the inside of the tire, so 1400 miles post alignment and new tires it's going to happen again.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 08:21:19 PM by Keith Stevens »

Cyclone03

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2021, 10:51:10 PM »
Bare with me....
If all your front end pieces were new,especially the springs you will get a bit of settling.
I’m guessing your seeing negative camber .
What was the front end set to when you had it aligned ?

My go to setting for Mustangs is 0 camber, 3 1/2 deg caster (more if power steering) and 1/8 “ toe in

I have run -1deg camber but tighten the toe up to 1/16” and I have not seen any feathering of tires.

If the front settled that will toe out the tires ,that will chew them up pretty quick.

You can check toe for your self with a tape measure,my tires have a center grove that wakes it easy. I would check that for yourself first then go from there.
Lance H

Keith Stevens

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2021, 11:19:04 PM »
I did forget to mention the Arning/Shelby upper control arm drop on the car.   

e philpott

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2021, 11:53:48 PM »
Toe set too much out instead of in will feather edge the inside . Did you get a alignment sheet with your before and after specs ?

Falcon67

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2021, 11:35:56 AM »
The Mustang (gone) and the Falcon are (were) set the same - 1" upper arm drop, 2 1/2 degrees caster (2 to 3 is my target), 1/8 toe and as close to zero camber as I can get.  I also do not use the camber bolt setup.  All are replaced with the eccentric lockout.

https://www.globalwest.net/mustang-alignment-problem-solver-kit-loc-out-kit-1967-1968-1969-1970-1971-1972-1973-global-west.html

I haven't had the Falcon race car on an alignment rack in 10 years.

Keith Stevens

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2021, 12:03:12 PM »
Yes, there are sheets. I know what toe settings will eat tires in a hurry. What makes no sense is the fact there is clearly quite a bit of negative camber if you look at the car from 20 feet away.  The camber shouldn't have been able to change. That was the purpose of the camber lock-out kit. It doesn't allow for any movement what so ever. I don't remember paying close attention. The lip of the fender just cover the top edge and they are wider than stock and isn't particularly noticeable in part because of the ride height and sitting on an incline with the nose slightly elevated it became obvious.
Strangely enough there didn't seem to be any odd handling characteristics until recently post the third alignment. I noticed it would grab certain road characteristics and pull the car. I had been considering a bump steer kit. I change the oil at 1500 miles on this car. So I caught the feather on the inside at that juncture.

oldiron.fe

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2021, 02:18:38 PM »
  caster/camber has to be off a lot to really wear tires -most of the time bad toe in/out wears your tires  -  if way off can wear fast !!     if you are accurate with a tape measure you should keep toe close to avoid tire wear   never had bad wear on tires at 1/16 to 1/8 toe in  but you must be accurate with your measurement  and be sure of all parts are good even new parts can be bad  big pry bar to check for any unwanted movement -good luck -oldiron
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Keith Stevens

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2021, 05:17:08 PM »
All the parts were nice and tight and torqued to spec with AMK new hardware.
The specifications for the Arning drop car for 1967 is:
+2 degrees caster. 0 degree Camber 1/8" toe in.

frnkeore

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2021, 05:56:06 PM »
Quote
Strangely enough there didn't seem to be any odd handling characteristics until recently post the third alignment. I noticed it would grab certain road characteristics and pull the car.
This may, well be caused by the offset on your wheels. My old '65 2+2 had this issue, bad! It's the car pictured in my avatar. It has 8.5 wide, American Wheels, with a 1.25, positive offset, giving around a 1.5 scrub radius. It would pull anytime there was a patch or joint, in the road.

This diagram, will help explain it. The scrub radius offset, allows road input to have leverage on the steering. Production cars, usually have a little negative radius, for stability.
 
Frank

frnkeore

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2021, 06:36:33 PM »
Here is a complete alignment kit, for less than a any alignment, I know about.

First the toe in gauge. It's made of 3/4 sq tubing, 6.5 to 7ft long, plus 2 pieces 16" long and one piece of 1" sq tube, 2" long, to side over the 3/4 tube. Weld a 5/16 nut to it, drill it thur and tap. I welded a little piece of 1/4" round, on the bolt head to make a small T-handle. Note that there is a projection welded, on both sides of the tools upright.

Adjust it to about .5 - 1" wider than the sidewall of the tires. You put projection on the bulge of the sidewall, at approx the center ht. Have someone hold it there or block it up, to that point. Go to the other side and use a scale, to measure to the same point. Note that measurement. Side the tool to the other side of the tire and measure that distance. The difference will be your toe in (or out). On the side wall, I use 1/16, rather than 1/8.

Camber is the easiest to measure. Again, you use the side wall of the tire. You can use just a straight edge or, I use a 24" carpenters square. It's easier for me to see the degree reading, when it's horizontal. The angle finder is magnetic so, it will work, either way. That will give you a accurate camber reading to as close as you can make out the scales divisions.

Next is caster. To get caster, you turn the wheel 20 degrees, in each direction and take a camber reading. You add those two readings together and that is the caster angle.

I first did caster by setting the wheels straight ahead, then marking 20 deg off the sidewall, with a adjustable angle tool like is pictured and chalk marked the angle, on the floor. I then turned the tire, parallel to the mark and took the camber reading, same on the other side. Caster is the least important reading. Caster can be off 1/2 deg and you'll never notice but, if you do your measurements, carefully this way, it will be very accurate.

For about $180 (cheaper used. I got my set for $50, many years ago) you can get a set of turn plates and it will make caster readings easier.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164159822197?epid=8043760102&hash=item2638b01975:g:C2EAAOSwRTJelI7c

Edit:
Be sure that the surface you use, is actually level and if you use turn plates, that the rear tires are raised to the same height as the plates.
Edit 2:
If you've jacket the car up, after letting it down, you need to roll it, back and forth to settle the supension, back into position.
   
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 12:28:42 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

Cyclone03

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2021, 09:36:03 PM »
If your lower control arms have stock type bushings the car has to be sitting down with full weight before they are tightened. If you don’t do this the front will be high until the bushing tears. The upper spring perch if stock can also hold the front up. If the alignment guy jacked the front up and didn’t know to settle the suspension ,(sometimes happens when alignment heads are in stalled) then when you drive a bit the alignment will be wrong.

Lance H

Keith Stevens

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2021, 11:27:34 PM »
I am running 17 X 7 instead of the factory 10 spoke 15 X 7 on the front. The offset is the same as the factory 10 spoke alloy. Sadly I have offset sizes. The back is 17 X 8 with a 255-45-17, The front is 235-45-17. The side wall profile isn't that low. I hate the older cars with rubber-band sidewalls. The overall tire height is only about an inch less than the original speedway E70-15.
I put it up on jack stands tonight. I'm going to go over it well in the morning. 
I'll let you all know what I find if anything out of place. I appreciate the responses.

The alignment with the cam locks was 379.00. In my opinion rediculous.

Cyclone03

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2021, 09:27:16 AM »
Nothing wrong with your tire size choice. I’m running 235/45 17 front and an 8” wheel and 255/45 17 rear on 17x9.5’s.

I’m sorry you have fallen in old car hell when trying to have work done in the modern world.
Lance H

oldiron.fe

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2021, 11:18:05 AM »
 2xfrnkeore  --will add my best toe meas. jack ea. tire up white spray paint rotate /spin tire  coat center of tire /dry spin tire scribe clean /clear groove in paint -- repeat dry good roll car back/forward a few feet to settle    put pipe on stands fasten heavy wire w/pointed end to tire     groove in paint  check front/back  adj. roll /repeat  done carefully O  error  no/lights/computer etc.    old school string car with jack stands etc. nascar  style good for 200mph good tire wear!!  sidewall can have raised letters etc   stands with pointer@ paint scribe O error for toe !!!            oldiron.fe      old school                                                                                                                                                                                     
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oldiron.fe

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Re: Not exactly FE only.. Mustang front alignment issues X3.
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2021, 11:32:38 AM »


      p.s.  pull hub cap  grease cap put angle gage on clean hub end   --turn  spindle nut w/sides verticle  w/good  gage magnet  should  best  read   --min  chance to read meas. error   or sidewall change raised letters etc.
66' Fairlanes 427 (08/26/67- present)
66/67' Fairlanes
70' Mustang Fastback
66' Dually