Author Topic: 352 360 horse  (Read 8156 times)

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Royce

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2021, 02:54:42 PM »
Kevin.....  the shrimp glutton has not even weighed in yet.
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

WerbyFord

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2021, 01:28:40 PM »
Gonkulator says
Torq 398 at 3400
Powr 345 at 5200
It does like a couple feet of 2.5" pipe on the end of the shorty iron.
This will be some good historical info to have.

70bosscat

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2021, 02:29:19 PM »
357 @ 5800 rpm is my WAG. I'm thinking the heads may not like as much timing as standard shape FE chambers.

Royce

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2021, 04:35:33 PM »
Well Folks  results are in. Mr. Craine was our Nostradamus here.  My lower guess was close but some tricks at the end got us a few extra ponies.  I do have a gift for a lucky contestant.  No,not shrimp cocktail  lol.. I have a new size 2x "What the heck is a Y Block" T shirt. Free to the first request (if you want to admit you take a 2x.. Joe has plenty of these shirts and so do I. So, any closet Y Blockers out there?

Started out with some warm up pulls. 36 degrees of timing. Carb built to stock specs by Drew (performed great as far as function). I used a 4 hole 1 inch spacer.  The original engine probably had one of those 1/2 inch phenolic jobs, but I could not find one.  So rather than bolt the carb direct to the manifold, I used the 4 hole 1 inch.   First pull yielded 290 horse. Ouch...We determined that the secondaries were not opening fully so we put a zip tie on them and tried again. Next pull 307.. Well it did improve... I was starting to think that my suspicion that this might be a 300 horse motor was proving to be correct. In looking over the data it's pig rich.11.6 up top.  Down low and in a cruise test it was actually not bad  12.7. Since it is a 4160, no option to lean the secondaries, so we took 4 jets out of the front. Stock jets were 64s.. We had to hunt to find some 60s.  It responded with a 311 number  . It was still about 1/2 point rich but we had no smaller jets.    Next we did some timing loops  in the end 40 degrees is the sweet spot and it made 317..  With timing and fuel dialed in as good as possible time to try a couple other things.. I put on a 1 inch cloverleaf spacer and we hit 320.. We were pulling some vacuum but not a huge amount, 1.6 inches... Carb is small but not choking the engine too much.  Pretty much had this combination maxed out.. I borrowed a 1.19 Autolite so I bolted that on hoping to see some more gains.  One pull disabused that notion.  It was dangerously lean, over 15:1. No jets on hand for that baby and since it is a borrowed carb I did not want to tear it apart..Just to see if the carb was really holding it back we put on the dyno shop 750.  It is well sorted out and we got the best so far pull of 327..As the last effort we cooled it down to 120 water and 170 oil temp and made a final pull, 333 @5400  376 torque at 3500. It appears peak torque is lower than 3500 but the dyno is not happy being loaded at a lower rpm.  I would guess peak torque is some where between 380 - 385.. I will post the actual dyno sheets a little later when I get some time.

Obviously there is not a 360 horse number as this engine sits.. In my opinion the intake is the main culprit, with the cam not really helping much either.. I thought the carb would be the real cork in the bottle but it performed pretty well.
So  could Ford have made 360 horse?   Maybe...  If they had used dyno headers, that's probably 15 horse   If the engine was blueprinted with a minimum chamber and tightest deck clearance and loose bearing and piston clearances, thin hot oil, that might be worth another 15 horse, so it's possible .
The cam, while showing a 308 seat to seat duration and 228 @.050 did not act that big at all. No idle lope, 19 inches of vacuum, and an easy 650 rpm idle. I lay most of that mildness on the super wide 114 LSA. On the other hand power peaked at 5400 rpm and it pulled strong to 5700. That probably is in part due to the 114 spacing.  This is a really well mannered engine, starts immediately, idles effortlessly, takes throttle cleanly.. Would be a real joy in a street car.  When you think about it, a 390 police interceptor made 330, so this thing makes that with 30 less cubes..

https://youtu.be/fQ4vw3Xnqq4
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 07:28:51 PM by Royce »
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

blykins

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2021, 06:33:57 PM »
Still stout for its size.   I'd be pleased with that.

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
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70tp

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2021, 07:45:15 PM »
Seems like a real good runner.  This closet Y blocker would be proud to have that in something nice. I’ve been threatening to put something like that in the mustang instead of the finicky tunnel port and enjoy driving it.  And I’m 2x size also. 

Royce

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2021, 07:56:26 PM »
Ding Ding Ding   We have a weeener.. Give me your address...   Only condition is you have to take a picture of you wearing it and post it on here so Jay can see it.. 

Oh, and Joe Craine can get 325 horse out of a 292 Y block without hardly trying
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

jayb

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2021, 11:15:12 PM »
I've seen the Y-block t-shirt.  I want to see the MEL t-shirt  ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2021, 06:16:59 AM »
Royce, can you pop up some engine pics?

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

cjshaker

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2021, 06:53:04 AM »
How much do you think the 1/2 point of compression was worth? Maybe another 5-10 hp? Along with headers, that would put it right up there around the factory rating.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Royce

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2021, 07:51:13 AM »
1/2 point should be worth 6-7 at this hp level.
 If you were able to find a head with the min CC spec and achieve very tight quench you might even exceed the factory compression ratio...
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

blykins

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2021, 09:00:15 AM »
The cam, while showing a 308 seat to seat duration and 228 @.050 did not act that big at all. No idle lope, 19 inches of vacuum, and an easy 650 rpm idle. I lay most of that mildness on the super wide 114 LSA. On the other hand power peaked at 5400 rpm and it pulled strong to 5700.

My guess is that they rated camshafts differently back then instead of a .006" rating or a .020" rating like we have today.  A 308 advertised duration on a 114 would be 80 degrees of overlap, which doesn't match your description of manifold vacuum, idle quality, idle speed, etc. 

The .050" duration seems right in the ballpark though since the engine pulled to 5700.  That .050" duration with 350 cubes and those heads matches right up.  I think the factory rating was at 6000 rpm, right?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

427John

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2021, 10:06:00 AM »
 If you had been able to get the right pistons and get them closer to the deck,do you think it would have made a significant difference just from quench distance?Also what head gasket did you use that gave you the .020 thickness?If steel shim was it the Mr Gasket piece,I've been trying to find out for sure what the thickness of that gasket is I've seen 3 different specs from all the different vendors that sell it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 10:15:30 AM by 427John »

Royce

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2021, 10:25:33 AM »
I don't think quench would have made a difference, I was using 110 fuel so detonation was not a concern..Maybe it would have not required as much timing, but the quench was not awful at .050. The extra compression would have helped.. I got the gaskets from Dennis at DSC
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

My427stang

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Re: 352 360 horse
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2021, 10:56:32 AM »
Absolutely agree with the intake being a cork as the stock intakes of that era (and most every Ford dual plane intake to some level) has a miserable sharp 90 degree corner for the lower plane at the bottom of the plenum.  The early single 4s and low riser dual quads are the worst of the bunch.  FWIW, after talking to Joe, and diving into it myself on CJ iron intakes, I reach as deep as I can to get inside, the lower plane especially, and eliminate shear points as well as smooth the turn FWIW

I also agree with Brent on the cam, I would venture to guess that Ford's seat to seat timing was something tighter than common cams, which would make it smaller using current measurement techniques, as well as the typically loose lash settings associated with the time having the same effect.  I would love to see the cam degreed from .020 to .020 like a modern solid and hear the results, my guess is it likely is a baby as you have seen.  It would also be neat if you dropped lash to .012-.014 to see where it moved things

I also agree quench at .050 wasn't an issue

That being said, spitting distance of 1 hp per cid without any tricks is pretty darn cool in my book!
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch