FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on September 18, 2014, 10:05:12 PM
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It looks from the poll results in the previous post that the high cost is the major barrier to entry, although that may not be the only barrier. So here's a question: What if you could buy ALL the parts necessary to build an SOHC for $15K? Still too expensive, or getting to the point where it may be do-able?
Here is what I'm thinking. Start with a run of the mill 390 block, bored .030 or .040 over. Cross bolt it if you want to make more than 600 HP. Add a stroker crank kit, like the ones available from Barry or Doug, but with SOHC pistons. Probably adds $300 to $400 to the price of the kit. The 390 cylinder bores would have to be notched for the intake valve to clear, but if you ran 2.25" intakes it would be less problematic than with the 2.300" intakes. By the way, a good friend of mine is running an SOHC with a 390 block right now, so I know it can be done. Then, the trick is just to get the SOHC specific parts down to a reasonable price.
I'm asking about this because one of the manufacturers of SOHC parts has offered to sell me the tooling to build them. Not exactly a project I was looking to take on, but I wanted to at least gauge some interest from the FE community. Having some experience under my belt now with casting up the intake adapters and the timing covers, doing all the SOHC stuff doesn't look that far out of reach. I have a pretty good local casting outfit, and an excellent local pattern maker that I could use to modify the patterns if necessary. I could do the machining myself, at least for the most part, to bring the price of the parts down. For example, I think I could sell a pair of the heads for $3000, not $5500 like they are going for now. Probably sell the intake manifold for $750, the front cover for $500, etc. I would want to cast non-adjustable ductile iron rockers like the original factory ones to keep the cost down, which would be something new but definitely do-able. I'd go with Comp billet cams and a good timing chain set with a .250" pin roller chain.
I've added up all the parts required to build such a motor, from carbs to pan, and including gaskets, rings, and bearings, and I think the total parts cost would come in right around $15K. About $10K of that is SOHC specific, and the remaining $5K is the short block and dual carbs. Additional expenses would be any machining costs and assembly costs if you had someone else build it for you.
This may never happen (and probably won't), but if it did, would the reduced price make building one of these engines substantially more attractive?
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I will step in again, and say the size of the engine is a barrier for me, and that cost does not seem realistic for you to make a profit. Most folks would step up to a new 427 block, and that would add another $3500 or more to the package, and you are still knocking on $20,000 minimum. Headers, distributor, engine bay prep, shocks, etc., etc. I still would not buy because of the parts availability, and size of the engine. Too many unknowns at this time to commit to such a project. JMO, Joe-JDC.
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Ten grand for a sohc kit would be a great deal. I've got over twelve in my medium riser. That would open the door for many more people with smaller budgets. I would find a car to cut up to fit a sohc. I'm not sure who's stuff your looking at, but having a head with big air flow numbers so it could keep up with the big chief or thor bbf heads would make them more attractive. Maybe a smaller runner version for the 390 block crowd then a CNC race version? Also a list like your Cleveland adapters to keep people aware of parts availability. I'm think in each kit would also have to come with new Jay Brown sohc instruction manual and complimentary video!
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While that price definitely puts a new light on it (to me anyway), the only problem with that scenario is that it sounds like it would be a pretty run-of-the-mill street version, or in other words, an SOHC just for the sake of being an SOHC. Knowing myself, I'd want to build it more to the upper end for performance and that would add to the cost fairly significantly. Not having experience in building one, that's just going on your builds with all the extra little steps and higher end parts in the valvetrain and chain work to get the engine to live and perform well at the 7000rpm range.
But for people just wanting an SOHC for the look, to put in their non-shock towered car or street rod, that sounds like it would be an opportunity they might not normally be able to swing.
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First of all I love the look of my FE in my 62 f100,but for 15k I could build some real wild horsepower mod motors to play with. I guess I depends if you are going for the unique look or horsepower. thinking about it for me both look & power that the sohc delivers isn't enough to justify the price. with the mod motors being so plentiful in the junkyard for a reasonable price & Chinese turbos being cheap for decent quality I could build a few motors & blow them up with out coming near the 15k. now for around half the price I would be saving already to buy.
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10K for the Cammer specific stuff is a great deal. The Boss 9 kit is advertised in the new Hot Rod for $9500 and you get just the Boss specific stuff too.
Same difference. Pick your poison.
I like the Boss...but it'd just look wrong in my Thunderbird.
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Interesting...It my never hapend but .
For a long time i have wanted a SOHC.
But finding one here in Sweden was
impossible.And in recent years when
the aftermarket SOHC parts was
availabel.
There was so much rumors about leaking
castings, reliabiliti issues,and of cause
people paying for SOHC parts they never got
If there were SOHC specific parts availibel for
10k from a reliabel source. That stood behind
there product and you could run it on the street
with no issues. I would seriously consider buying
a kit
If cheap horsepower was my goal i would take a
totaly different route
I can spend 10 k on other engines and get more hp
but i can spend the same on a flathead Ford and get
250 hp and it would selfdestruct
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I have 24 in my 511... i would convert in a second for 10k.
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Assuming we could get more cid out of a 390 block than 445, I may do it at that price. However if stroke is held to only 445 cubes for that price, I think money would be better spent elsewhere
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I think the vast majority of Cammers out there are for show vehicles and easy-on-the-gas streeters where the Wow value is high.
Jay seem to one of the few who actually campaigns a drag strip runner and of course is interested in maximizing the potential of this unique engine. I'll also venture that nostalgia racers with a old funny car, dragster or gas powered SS or early FX cars are the primary users of the SOHC in competition (just for fun stuff btw) or even for nitro cacklefest shows. Would like to see someone do a Bach and Gould nitro car!
http://www.dragracingonline.com/special/bachgould_1.html
Seems too that a 32 Deuce or similar roadster is a regular recipient of the engine as it is displayed w/o a hood, maximizing the 'look' of this great looking piece and isn't hindered by shock towers or limited header room. Here a 390 CID SOHC would fit right in.
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That's because if you have a 40,000 engine most people worry about breaking it.
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I think you could build a 445", 600 HP SOHC pretty easily, and that's all the horsepower that a lot of people would want anyway. Factory HP was 616, after all. Going to a 427 block would add at least $4K to the price tag, but allow you to get into the 750 HP range pretty easily.
I want to make one comment about horsepower per dollar. With nitrous, superchargers, and turbos available anybody can build 1000 HP in a 60's vintage V8 engine without too much trouble. Those parts cost the same for any engine, and when you get up into the stratosphere of power levels like that, many of the bottom end components cost about the same for any engine too. My point is that if you are only interested in making big power you can do that as easily with an FE as with most engines, and the cost won't be that much different. Yes, you can make more power with a 385 series engine, and you will save some money over an FE on the block, heads, and maybe the crank, but not much else. And at those power levels I for one don't care so much about the difference in power production. My supercharged 489" FE made over 1200 HP and didn't cost that much more than building an equivalent 385 series engine. And getting the power to the ground was the real problem at that horsepower level.
To me the cost issue for FEs comes in when building a strong engine in the 600-800 horsepower range that is naturally aspirated. That's where our FEs get "Freakin' Expensive" compared to a lot of other engines. Most people building SOHCs are going to fall in that horsepower range, and the SOHCs are then REALLY expensive on a horsepower per dollar basis. My thinking when giving consideration to this project was to get that cost down to a little more reasonable level, although in any case the SOHC is still going to be a fairly expensive engine compared to a pushrod motor.
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So what kind of body would one fit into without tearing out the shock towers?
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Jay,
For 15k I would do it, and having someone such as yourself be the source for parts would be even better. I would probably begin with the lower power-level version and work my way up...
Btw, I may have a chance at an ex-Earl Wade all-iron Cammer with low hours. It was apparently in a street car for a short time. How much do you think that would be worth if in the advertised condition?
Great subject! I've really enjoyed this thread.
Bruce
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Deep swallow and hmmmmm.
That would really make me think about the DOHC I have for my non shock tower '66 Stang.
When before I could only dream.
Damn you Jay Brown :)
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So what kind of body would one fit into without tearing out the shock towers?
Galaxies, Starliners, pickups, and 55-57 Thunderbirds to name a few. Any Mustang, Falcon, Fairlane, or Torino is going to require shock tower surgery to make the engine fit.
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Deep swallow and hmmmmm.
That would really make me think about the DOHC I have for my non shock tower '66 Stang.
When before I could only dream.
Damn you Jay Brown :)
LOL! Sorry Marc... ;D
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I don't really get the "I could make more power with a _____ for less money" mentality. We can all make more power with a 385 series or by throwing a turbo or supercharger on a Mod motor and be less than a comparable FE, but that's not why we belong to this forum. At least not for me. My 427 is "only" making 500hp and its on the edge of being streetable. I could blow that away with a mild 385. Heck, I could have 4 385s for the price of my 2 427s and make more power, but for me it's an FE or nothing :)
Edit: Having big horsepower numbers just comes down to bragging rights. I'm pretty sure I could smoke the tires just as easily with my 500hp as somebody could with a 700-800hp 385, but it wouldn't be nearly as cool with the latter :)
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Jay this is like saying they are going to drop the price of goof balls.
We're addicts man! ::)
Hell yes I want a cheap set of goof balls.
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Jay this like saying they are going to drop the price of goof balls.
We're addicts man! ::)
Hell yes I want a cheap set of goof balls.
More evidence that we've all come to the right place ;D. The addict part is spot on for me (and others like Doug above I'm sure). I had to have me some FE power and what really got me going was the more affordable stuff that you just couldn't get in years past. For me, Survival supplied what I needed with a price I could justify in the end, all while significantly ramping up the performance.
There's no doubt that if SOHC parts got "affordable enough" I would be drawn into that web. To date I've never even considered it due to cost alone. Guess in the end we've all got a magic number on cost versus bang for the buck.
Tough decision for you Jay, as getting costs down would necessarily include moving some volume, you'd need to be able to gauge commitment to buy as with your intake adapter. This whole deal is just so much bigger..........
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Btw, I may have a chance at an ex-Earl Wade all-iron Cammer with low hours. It was apparently in a street car for a short time. How much do you think that would be worth if in the advertised condition?
Bruce
Bruce, there are people out there who will pay a lot of money for the original Ford parts. If that engine is complete, and running, its worth at least $25K, and probably more.
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It looks from the poll results in the previous post that the high cost is the major barrier to entry, although that may not be the only barrier. So here's a question: What if you could buy ALL the parts necessary to build an SOHC for $15K? Still too expensive, or getting to the point where it may be do-able?
Here is what I'm thinking. Start with a run of the mill 390 block, bored .030 or .040 over. Cross bolt it if you want to make more than 600 HP. Add a stroker crank kit, like the ones available from Barry or Doug, but with SOHC pistons. Probably adds $300 to $400 to the price of the kit. The 390 cylinder bores would have to be notched for the intake valve to clear, but if you ran 2.25" intakes it would be less problematic than with the 2.300" intakes. By the way, a good friend of mine is running an SOHC with a 390 block right now, so I know it can be done. Then, the trick is just to get the SOHC specific parts down to a reasonable price.
I'm asking about this because one of the manufacturers of SOHC parts has offered to sell me the tooling to build them. Not exactly a project I was looking to take on, but I wanted to at least gauge some interest from the FE community. Having some experience under my belt now with casting up the intake adapters and the timing covers, doing all the SOHC stuff doesn't look that far out of reach. I have a pretty good local casting outfit, and an excellent local pattern maker that I could use to modify the patterns if necessary. I could do the machining myself, at least for the most part, to bring the price of the parts down. For example, I think I could sell a pair of the heads for $3000, not $5500 like they are going for now. Probably sell the intake manifold for $750, the front cover for $500, etc. I would want to cast non-adjustable ductile iron rockers like the original factory ones to keep the cost down, which would be something new but definitely do-able. I'd go with Comp billet cams and a good timing chain set with a .250" pin roller chain.
I've added up all the parts required to build such a motor, from carbs to pan, and including gaskets, rings, and bearings, and I think the total parts cost would come in right around $15K. About $10K of that is SOHC specific, and the remaining $5K is the short block and dual carbs. Additional expenses would be any machining costs and assembly costs if you had someone else build it for you.
This may never happen (and probably won't), but if it did, would the reduced price make building one of these engines substantially more attractive?
Interesting idea, and I think it would help some, but once you lower that cost barrier I think more of the other reasons to not build would come up.
It does help that you don't have big overhead working out of your place, but would you have to bring in more machines to handle that kind of work load? What would the minimum number of castings be from your foundry at the prices you worked up?
I would also think that most would just step up to an aftermarket 427 block if they were going down that road. By the time you had all of the machine work done on a 390 block, plus crossbolting it and drilling it for SOHC oiling stepping up to a new 427 block wouln't be that much more money.
This isn't the first time this has been thought of or attempted either, and it ended in bankrupsy for at least one of the previous businesses after he took alot of money from alot of people, and I'm not even referring to your "friend" who is still trying. Then again you doing it right would be nice after all of your previous problems.
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So what kind of body would one fit into without tearing out the shock towers?
Galaxies, Starliners, pickups, and 55-57 Thunderbirds to name a few. Any Mustang, Falcon, Fairlane, or Torino is going to require shock tower surgery to make the engine fit.
Dammit Jay...... now you are making me want a pickup truck with a SOHC.
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Hummm....interesting question. But even at 15-20 grand for a 390/428 based Cammer is still more than I can justify at this stage in my life. I am wanting to retire in the next year or two and frivolously spending, say $20K on a car that sits in my shop for 359 days a year and only rolled out for a evening at the local hotrod get together or for that one annual carshow road trip my wife and I take every year I still can not justify the cost. The eye appeal is second to none even while parked next to the typical shoebox Chevy with a 6-71 sticking out of the hood...The Cammer wins hands down, no doubt. As I said in my other post spending that kind of $$$ just to impress the crowd that doesn't know [or care] the difference between my 60 Starliner and a Pontiac Bonneville, huge set of cam covers that say "Ford SOHC" is not going to mean much to them anyway except for the usual stupid comments like "...didn't Pontiac have a OHC too?" or "What does "SOHC" mean?" As for the horsepower, my drag racing days are long gone so the hp is more or less a non issue and the more hp I have is just too tempting to use it on the street. If...and that is a big IF I was tempted to build a Cammer, I wouldn't bother with a 390 or 428 block I would use one of the 427s I have now...but I would wait until the next morning for the final decision when I sobered up. :o Jay, If the cost of the rights, patterns, equipment, etc is cheap enough I think it would be a good long term investment as the Cammer would appeal to the pre-48 hotrod crowd looking for something different to put in their fenderless 32 or some sort of street "altered" hooptie. The 60s Galaxie application is a given but I think there is a wider appeal to the Cammer than just Galaxies, Fairlanes and Mustangs and don't overlook the hotboat crowd.
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I don't want to sound like a naysayer, but 600 hp probably wouldn't sell for me for that cost. It'd have to be screaming to take advantage of the port cross section and runner volume (I think, correct me if I am wrong which would drive me to more money in the block anyway) unless there is a modified small runner head. Even then though it's just for looks, a pro-port 445 would do 600 hp cheaper and the whole curve would be nicer.
Now, if we could to a real big stroke in the 390 block, maybe with 481 inches, it may start leaning that way, but it would drive costs up and probably still require an investment in the block
That being said Jay, if someone wants the experience of a cammer, I think it would be great. The 445 could be Phase 1 and allow a ticket to entry with a big shortblock build later
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So what kind of body would one fit into without tearing out the shock towers?
Galaxies, Starliners, pickups, and 55-57 Thunderbirds to name a few. Any Mustang, Falcon, Fairlane, or Torino is going to require shock tower surgery to make the engine fit.
How many early birders do you think i'd tick off by ditching the 312 for a cammer? in my '57?
(http://www.brentroad.com/photos/00532732.jpg)
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I don't really get the "I could make more power with a _____ for less money" mentality. We can all make more power with a 385 series or by throwing a turbo or supercharger on a Mod motor and be less than a comparable FE, but that's not why we belong to this forum. At least not for me. My 427 is "only" making 500hp and its on the edge of being streetable. I could blow that away with a mild 385. Heck, I could have 4 385s for the price of my 2 427s and make more power, but for me it's an FE or nothing :)
Edit: Having big horsepower numbers just comes down to bragging rights. I'm pretty sure I could smoke the tires just as easily with my 500hp as somebody could with a 700-800hp 385, but it wouldn't be nearly as cool with the latter :)
Thats exactly what im say. I dont have 50 year old car with even older engine to make
big hp numbers cheap .Its beacuse i want to have it. and thats why im on this forum
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I'd do a cammer kit for 10k. What FE guy hasn't ever thought about owning the king of all FE's? Plus I think it would force some of the other SOHC parts sellers to drop their prices to compete for sales.
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If you have big hp numbers and don't use it for anything... then what is the point?
Smoking the tires is a silly reason to have 500hp you could do that with 300.
But if you autoX, Drag race, road race etc that's where bang for the buck starts to matter...
And i guess those are bragging rights but if you don't compete whats the fun?
I have an FE because i like FEs sometimes i wish i went the 385 route... but to be honest the only other engines i really like are the mod motors.
Also Deep skirt "y" blocks with interesting top ends. And for that matter... i own a y block too... i don't really love anything but the sound it makes but the sound is... instant ;D on a bad day.
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No matter what you build you just can't beat the look of a SOHC motor!
http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq80/mike7570/PICT0034-1.jpg
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So what kind of body would one fit into without tearing out the shock towers?
Galaxies, Starliners, pickups, and 55-57 Thunderbirds to name a few. Any Mustang, Falcon, Fairlane, or Torino is going to require shock tower surgery to make the engine fit.
How many early birders do you think i'd tick off by ditching the 312 for a cammer? in my '57?
Thats been done plenty of times. In fact I sold one for a friend last year that he did in 1971 with a brand new crate engine when his twin Paxton supercharged 312 was getting tired. The car is currently under restoration by the new owner but he's leaving th Cammer in it.
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the Cammer would appeal to the pre-48 hotrod crowd looking for something different to put in their fenderless 32 or some sort of street "altered" hooptie. The 60s Galaxie application is a given but I think there is a wider appeal to the Cammer than just Galaxies, Fairlanes and Mustangs and don't overlook the hotboat crowd.
Thats Me - when my plans fell apart on the project I was putting together I started on an altered (bantam body) It is a 96" wheelbase and will never be a competitive race car - I will run it only at nostalgia events and it will be a glorified "run stand" ....I must confess, I have an alky injected sbc at my disposal and actually offered my fresh 427/c6 here at a super cheap price with no takers.....right now its mocked up in the chassis and I'll prob run a sheet metal intake on jay's adapter.....but a SOHC conversion is just what this thing needs....Am I in at 10k for the parts? Hell ya
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Jay,
Your wife must be a saint to put up with you............ You have some mighty big ideas! LOL
I too love the look of the SOHC, but I can't justify the money for the look. My wife is already worried about me with a 445 over 500hp. The only good thing is that the SOHC would hold it's value more than my 445 if something happens to me and my wife needs to liquefy the engines or cars. The wife factor would shut me down. Dan
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I have a spare original 427 low riser with 2 cracked heads and a crank missing one of the bolt ears for the flywheel.
that sounds like it would be my cammer in wait...
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I think the real bugaboo for cammers has been the lack of a one-stop shop with quality parts, at an attainable price, that somebody will stand behind. There are too many stories of non-existent or porous castings, or chain "A" that ends up not working with sprocket set "B", or everything's available except for one silly component everybody's waiting for.
Convenience is unfortunately a fact of modern life. People want to be able to buy a complete kit that they know is well sorted. It would be nice to have a knowledgeable person answer the phone if there is a question. Many of us know that Dove tried to sell a bunch of $11K cammer conversion kits several years ago. That did not go well for the above reasons!
The $10K price is great, but there's also a major commitment to getting it all right. Jay might be in a unique position to pull it off!
JMO, of course,
Bill
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Jay, If you had come up with this a little earlier I would have been very interested. I just put out 15 K usd into my 482 tunnel port build and will risk a divorce if I do another motor next year. That all being said, put me on the list if you do come up with a SOHC kit. could alway sell my tunnel port set up and covert my short block. Once again like so many others,sorry to hear how Drag week turned out for you, top shelf part failing has got to suck.
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One thing that is very important to me is the "comfort level" of a engine, meaning a cheap 390 that I can drive like a rented mule and not worry about is much more fun to me than a $20-30K engine that if something breaks its big bucks and an extended search for parts that are on the endangered species or unobtainium list. That was the reason I took the 427 S/O out of my Hondo flat as it would be much safer and well preserved in my 61 Starliner. The Hondo got a 460 t/t that I had no reservations about running it to 72-7300 rpm. I am a die-hard Ford freak and just about any Ford engine is fine with me irregardless of the family...I love 'em all from flatheads to Mod motors and everything in between but my main interests are FEs and 385 engines in that order.
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I had brought up in an earlier thread about a cammer fitting in a 69 mustang with the shock tower s trimmed similar to the boss 429 , which is not a problem . A sohc top end in that price range that could be fitted to a 390 -428 block would certainly open up a lot of us to do it , I would do it in a heart beat Jay . My ultimate 69 mach would have an all aluminum 482-500 inch motor or a cammer , and in my opinion you are gonna spend 10,000 to 12,000 on most builds anyway . I have 4,000 in heads , roller cam , rockers and push rods now .. it adds up quick as we all know , but opening the hood and see ng a sohc HELL YEAH .......... Bud
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If there was a one stop shop that sold a quality cammer kit for around $10k, I'd be in. I already have a 496 bottom end and 2 big engine bays that could handle it.
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Jay,
Your wife must be a saint to put up with you............ You have some mighty big ideas! LOL
My wife does have a very high tolerance level for my "automotive adventures", but I haven't told her about this one LOL!
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That cost is much better, but I agree with what was said before, seems like you'd be really stretching to make a dime. IF I could someday have some more play money for a street car instead of just race cars, I'd think more about it. My one fairlane is a tube chassis so fitment is not an issue, and I have my 514 for sale on racing junk now that is in it. The plan for that car is to put it back on the street with the 427 block I have. If that 514 sells there will be an aluminum 427 in one of my other fairlanes next racing season. If it doesn't it will be a 390 again. The last one lasted 3 years before the block broke, thankfully no blowup, found on disassembly. Right around 600hp. I didn't run that car this year. I like the 385 series motor, but I grew up around and love my FE's, time to get rid of that motor.
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Sometimes it s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission LOL good luck Jay .. Bud
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I think the real bugaboo for cammers has been the lack of a one-stop shop with quality parts, at an attainable price, that somebody will stand behind. There are too many stories of non-existent or porous castings, or chain "A" that ends up not working with sprocket set "B", or everything's available except for one silly component everybody's waiting for.
Convenience is unfortunately a fact of modern life. People want to be able to buy a complete kit that they know is well sorted. It would be nice to have a knowledgeable person answer the phone if there is a question. Many of us know that Dove tried to sell a bunch of $11K cammer conversion kits several years ago. That did not go well for the above reasons!
The $10K price is great, but there's also a major commitment to getting it all right. Jay might be in a unique position to pull it off!
JMO, of course,
Bill
Kind of what I was thinking. If the Dove deal had went better I think we would see a lot more Cammers out there. I know I was trying to figure out how I could make it happen, but new that I would likely get burned if I had went forward with it because of Dove's reputation. Not to say that Dove hasn't on occasion put out useable parts, they just didn't have the consistency for me to offer up $10,000+.
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The drawback for me has always been the lack of finding all the parts in one place for a turn-key engine. Gaskets, sparkplug boots, distributor, waterpumps, motorplates, timing chains, camshafts, etc, etc. I still see folks asking for individual parts all along to complete a particular engine. If, and that is a big IF all the parts were available, then I would be much more likely to consider the deal as feasible. Most folks will find the money for anything they feel is worth the risk, and it is risky to start collecting parts for a SOHC when you don't know if you will be able to find ALL the parts to get the engine completed. That is a lot of money to commit to without knowing if you can get all the parts available in one place to make it work. In the end, if you were to sell 50 engines, what would be the profit margin? Sounds risky at best, but that is your decision to make. Joe-JDC
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It would be risky, Joe, no doubt about it. A lot would depend on how much I would have to pay for the tooling, if it included the machining tooling and machining programs along with the casting patterns, availability of a local supplier to me to make the gears, finding a good iron foundry for the rockers (my existing foundry only does aluminum), etc. etc. etc. And of course it would be a somewhat slow process to put the whole package together, because I have limited time to work on it and my machines are pretty busy as is. I don't think I'd want to add another CNC machine. But the idea of doing all the parts for an SOHC, doing them right, pricing them fairly, and getting more of these engines out there is very attractive to me. Its not a decision I have to make immediately, thankfully, so I'll be thinking about this for a while...
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I'm in !
PayPal ,401k
MasterCard ~ I'm ready to give you the security code on the back :)
Lets do this
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I agree that a single source of all quality parts would move the idea along. Yet, my marketing background says you'd need to closely gauge first total demand....which I'm doubtful is that high. Even the 50 engine demand level sounds high if it's spread over a 2-3 year period. I'll ask a rhetorical question as to what your cash outlay would be (negative cash flow) would be to get enough volume of castings, etc. to lower the cost/price to an acceptable level.
Tod Buttermore over on the Net 54 C forum has had a devil of a time, mainly with the casting side, in attempting to sell a great 351C block. Tod may be a good fellow to talk to about orders, promised orders (!) , delivery spans, etc. and he's only doing a bare block! Or Tim Meyer as he's handling the sales end.
http://www.the351cforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=244&p=1588
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The casting side of the deal is definitely the most difficult with any of these cast parts. There are some very high end castings outfits near me that I had quote my intake adapter, and the prices I got per adapter were well over $400 for just the raw casting. These outfits would X-ray the castings, vacuum degas the melt, etc, all in an effort to make aerospace quality castings. But in the end they were just too expensive to make the money side of things work. Then there were the smaller, less sophisticated outfits, that offered a really good price but were hit and miss on quality. Fearful of a "Dove" syndrome, I ended up with a casting shop that was kind of in the middle, and so far I've had pretty good luck with them. But casting an intake is a lot different than castings heads or a block. I've spoken with Tod Buttermore on a few occasions and I can certainly empathize with his issues on getting a block cast. The difficulties involved in casting a complex head like the SOHC just add to the riskiness of this venture. But, the guy with the patterns has had it done, and I've seen the parts, so it can be done...
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Good thing you've got all this free time Jay....... ;D
Seriously, if you do this, I think you'll be knighted by the FE monarchy. We'll have to start referring to you as Saint Rev Dr Sir JayBrown
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There's an FE monarchy? What does the queen look like?
???
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Do you REALLY want me to scour the internet to find a suitable picture? (I will)
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She s really curve ee and got awesome body lines , she stops traffic - makes everyone take notice ...... Jay take your time and think this thru , I M O it s a step - just be sure ..Bud
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Your Queen Sire
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Connie_Kreski_-_1969_GT500.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Connie_Kreski_-_1969_GT500.jpg.html)
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Wow! That good looking gal is now at least......65 years old....LOL!
Didn't know that Shelbys came in pink!
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They do if you're Playmate of the Year! And I know Jay's thinking of a repaint on the '69, maybe a color change? ;) as if the full tilt Cammer doesn't get enough attention ;D
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Any man showing up to "Drag Week" in a pink mustang would immediately be suspect.
I could hear it now.
"See that dude in the pink mustang?"
"Yeah, he started talking about two over head shafts and I walked away...."
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Any man showing up to "Drag Week" in a pink mustang would immediately be suspect.
I could hear it now.
"See that dude in the pink mustang?"
"Yeah, he started talking about two over head shafts and I walked away...."
LOL!
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10 K for quality parts sounds good ..... about what Dove was/is for iffy parts with out block ...... have to straight axle my 63 fairlane with 4 inch drop axle but I always wanted to build a high quality straight axle set up
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Ok as a former crazy mountain biker there is a website called Pinkbike.com
The way it goes in that world is as follows... when you're a big enough bad@ss you can ride a pink bike and pull it off.
(http://www.trianglemtb.com/images/leghuck.jpg)
(me)
I feel that could go the same @ drag week... put up or shut up... i don't care what you think i'm rockin the pink car.
That being said... white or black man... i'm pretty monochromatic in my cars.
Unless it can pull off british racing green.
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I would be a buyer at 10K for a kit..
To me the Cammer just has more wow factor than anything else Ford except for a Boss 9, and the new Kaase kit is right in that price range.. Certainly in the HP/$ game there are other Ford engines that deliver more for less..
I highly value uniqueness. And uniqueness with good performance is even better. What would be the premium for the Cammer kit vs prepped Ebocks or BT heads in the 600 -650 hp power level on a 445 short block? That is the real number that needs to be considered. Maybe it's a 5k upgrade? I would do that.
As far as the viability of it as a business investment, I will offer an example... Y Block Ford (Jay rolls his eyes). Would anyone say that investing in performance parts for them would be wise? probably not. Yet John Mummert spent a lot of time and money on developing Aluminum Intake and aluminum heads. I would say he has probably sold at least 200 sets of heads and as many intakes. Demand for them seems to be increasing and he is always behind on filling orders. Most of them are going to guys who have a desire to increase the performance of their 50's fords without dropping in a later series Ford engine. This is not a cheap upgrade. You would have close to 4K invested by the time you were finished. And Y Block guys do not have a reputation as high rollers lol.. It has to do with being unique and still being competitive.. Same motivation I would have for owning a cammer. And yes I do have a Mummert equipped Y block that makes 500 hp.
As far as what to put one in.. The current nostalgia racing movement is just begging for some cammers. Gassers FX cars, Altereds Funny cars Front engine Dragster.. (Jay how about a Shelby Super Snake clone) (Notice how we all love to spend Jay's Money for him)
Show up at a vintage drag race with a cammer equipped Ford and you get a LOT of attention Just a bonus when you outrun a bunch of ho hum Brand C stuff.
Jay I will offer a good test bed for your research and developement.. 57 Merc 2dr Wagon that formerly had a 545 385 in it Plenty of room in the engine compartment.. I can drop it at your place any time...
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I've seen that wagon, a Cammer would be Sweeeeet!
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I can drop it at your place any time...
LOL, what a giver ;)
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Jay I think it would be really cool if you started selling a complete kit you have always been my go to guy for questions anyway and I always tell my wife it was because of you that I built mine hahahahah. A complete kit for the price of $10K to $15K would be nice there are ways guys could cheat down the price by using a lot of the parts on the stock 390 crank, rods, oil pump, pan, all depends on how much HP they want to get out of it, the next one I build will be low HP something more street friendly, what I have now is a car I have to drive I can't Cruz in it although I do put a lot of miles on it, it would be fun to have one I can Cruz in and drive a little harder at stop lights when a Chev or Mopar pulls up right now they don't want nothing to do with it :) There is something about the looks when you go to a show and they here it and you get out and open the hood and guys just stand there and look, we just finished the stroker 390 and we have a lot of $ into that but to each his own poison.
Randy
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i'm already dreaming of a cammer and a GF4a in the t-bird...
DO IT!
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The ten grand conversion parts would attract me to one. Cost is the main reason i don't have one.
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Royce made a VERY good point up above. A 10K kit is about 5K more than you might have in a more 'run-of-the-mill' engine. Many people would pay the '5' extra just for the WOW bling factor. And just as a thought, it might well be possible to go with a runner shape/size that would pick up velocity enough to do some real good. CNC machining would be available for those who need more total flow. Just a thought.
KS
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I agree but.....$4K in a Y-Block top end that uses relatively cheap rods, cranks, blocks with the aftermarket heads is still a far cry from getting a pricey aftermarket 427 FE block, the $10K kit and the rest of the requisite "good parts" to make up a modern and pretty high hp SOHC.
That 500 hp Y-Block is great but again a 700 hp SOHC is going to require some expensive parts (like rods!) to stay together over time and hit some big rpms where the head will truly shine. JMO!
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That's still well outside my personal budget but those prices are phenomenal! Jay, are you sure you could actually make a profit at that level? I'd love to see that and I think it would bring a lot of buyers out of the woodwork. Hope it works out.
Lou
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The Jay Brown SOHC Crate engine factory
"Come on boys and girls... you wanted a cheap cammer, we gots em... come on down..... come on down, just back ya truck up to the shop, scare a few chickens away, and we'll load one right up for ya..... and buy 11 of them, and get the twelth one for just one penny!!! come on down!"
Man. now I wanna put a SOHC in a Dodge Aries and go piss off everyone at the track.
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Drew, that's exactly what I was thinking, a running crate engine, say standardized with a dual 4-bbl intake, ready to run less starter, 'wheel, carbs, etc.
Just like the original cammer, about 675 HP or so. If that could be done for say $20,000 (which by the way is the mark for an all-aluminum BBC ala' the ZL-1 components) now that would be fabulous. This price though sounds way to low to me....just sayin' :)
Btw, Ford even wrote the ad for Jay!
http://home.windstream.net/bowers2/images/fordtunnelport.jpg
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An all aluminum 480 inch sohc motor ... how do i order - lets do this 1 800 Jay
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I have invested a lot in my project, but I'd certainly consider a cammer kit. I have a std bore 427 block that would love to be turned into a cammer. Of course I'd have to spend a lot more to refit my Falcon for it but I'd consider it. It doesn't have shock towers anymore so it would just be mounts, transmission fitting, and headers. A '65 Falcon with a cammer would definitely be a rarity...
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Make it and they will buy it (including me). I'm with Royce on this one. I've got one of your adapters and the manner in which you conducted business on that transaction was as good as it gets. I went to the Hot Rod Reunion up at Epping New Hampshire a couple of weeks ago and can't recall seeing any cammers running there. I'm thinking a couple dozen of those running around up there would have gotten the Blue Oval crowd fired up.
Here is a simple comparison, in recent years there have been a lot of "Max Wedge" motors surfacing probably because those folks are taking common RB blocks buying A&A reproduction crossram manifolds that fit on non Max Wedge iron heads or Indy heads, adding aftermarket exhaust manifolds and creating "Max Wedge" motors. Most every other Max Wedge specific part is also available from some dedicated vendors.
I don't think there is much question that you'd sell a lot of those kits especially if the entire package comes directly from you. JMO
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Hi Jay, It's interesting to read all of the responses you have received about this topic. They vary so much from comparing HP for $ spent to the down and out nostalgic nut like myself. I have always wanted a cammer since my dad drove his 65 Gal as a daily drive. Back then I never dreamt of owning one little lone seeing a real side oiler. Its funny, I am 46 years down the road and in the last ten years or so, I have owned 2 NOS side oiler blocks, still have 2 sets of NOS medium riser heads, a set of tunnel port heads and am building a Shelby aluminum blocked cammer with Munro heads and a efi hilborn set up. I still haven't got every thing, but getting close. The real answer to your question is that if you are a fanatic of these engines, the most worrying and frustrating part is the availability of the parts. If there was a real source for a trusted, one stop shop, the cost isn't that relevant. If someone wants to build any type of engine for big HP. the answer is always the same - Cubic Inches Over Dollars. I wish I could find a truly reliable source. I have added a very rough add up of "prices" I found on line. Please feel free to correct me or add to the list for something I have forgoten. Cheers. Ps, this is a great forum.
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That's a great list. Perhaps someone can take a stab at adding to it by listing the current prices of a block, crank, SOHC specific pistons, etc. to get an even better idea of total cost.
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My response is more to the first question, but anyway, here goes. I like SOHC FEs, and they are arguably the king of the FE family. But I've already spent a small fortune on a BT MR headed 482, and that's the engine I wanted. I like push-rod V8 engines. My interest in FE engines is based on the basic FE, to me the SOHCs are "exotic" FE's. I admire the SOHC'S, they certainly are cool and can make big power. But to me the complexity of an OHC engine just isn't appealing. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have an 850 HP wedge headed push-rod engine than a 900 HP SOHC. Besides, the only people that can win in heads up racing or a horsepower war are the ones with the most money, and that isn't me anyway. (And no, my FE isn't 850 HP, just an example 8)).
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Hi Jay, It's interesting to read all of the responses you have received about this topic. They vary so much from comparing HP for $ spent to the down and out nostalgic nut like myself. I have always wanted a cammer since my dad drove his 65 Gal as a daily drive. Back then I never dreamt of owning one little lone seeing a real side oiler. Its funny, I am 46 years down the road and in the last ten years or so, I have owned 2 NOS side oiler blocks, still have 2 sets of NOS medium riser heads, a set of tunnel port heads and am building a Shelby aluminum blocked cammer with Munro heads and a efi hilborn set up. I still haven't got every thing, but getting close. The real answer to your question is that if you are a fanatic of these engines, the most worrying and frustrating part is the availability of the parts. If there was a real source for a trusted, one stop shop, the cost isn't that relevant. If someone wants to build any type of engine for big HP. the answer is always the same - Cubic Inches Over Dollars. I wish I could find a truly reliable source. I have added a very rough add up of "prices" I found on line. Please feel free to correct me or add to the list for something I have forgoten. Cheers. Ps, this is a great forum.
That's a pretty sweet list, but where are you sourcing them would be awesome too ;D
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Thats the whole problem, we need a decent reliable source.
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Well, I went back to Jay's 2009 Hot Rod mag. article on building a SOHC, remembering he did a complete parts list with then current pricing. I came up with $17,831... less than I would have thought. Adding in say a 5% rise in prices to 2014, that's still under $19,000. Don't know if that includes balancing btw.
Say a pro shop like Barry R.'s place did all the machining, balancing and assembly. I'd throw in say $5,000 for his efforts. Now we're at say $24,000, still less than I would have thought.
Are these numbers in the ballpark Jay? Perhaps you can improve them, using the old H/R article as a base and your current SOHC experiences.