Oil Pump Dyno

[Jim Comet]

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[winr1]

Would like to see what a larger tube pickup would do



Ricky.

[Blueoval77]

All of the contact is still to that one side of the pump (Understandably) . If the rotor cocks as it gets loaded then obviously its no longer square to the outer ring.If the two are not square to one another or they chatter then what happens ?  By design it will just keep doing this. Thicker oil higher load more deflection....
That bottom one absolutely looks better tho... The hooves take care of business ...

[machoneman]

Yes , and if you have worked on these things since they came out you already know the rock solid performance Ford has had out of all of these oil pressure controlled systems...
Combine these systems with mas produced components designed more with the bottom line in mind and ladies and gentlemen  . I give you the Ford 3 valve phaser tick....Or the chain slap , or the burned up followers or locked up cam on passengers side.....
The systems are great when you throw good parts at them . But out of the box.......... Its a mess.....

Oh, and don't forget another infamous Ford engineering failure, spark plug threads pulling out of a V-8's head, maybe not all eight but often 2-3. Good times!

[blykins]

Here's some new data to stir things up!  I got a new M-57 B standard volume high pressure pump from Doug Garifo.  I also got a new M-57 HV pump that is pure stock - not blueprinted.  (As you guys know, the original blueprinted HV pump got toasted.  I'm pretty sure it ingested something while I was shaking down the test rig...)

Here's what the pressure and flow look like for the two pumps.  What???  That's bass-ackwards!  The M-57 B actually makes more flow and pressure than the M-57 HV, except at very low rpm.  The M-57 B is also more efficient, using about 0.5 less HP at 7,500 rpm.

Here are the charts:





I am confident that this data is correct, because I ran the tests back-to-back on the same fresh oil with the instruments on and at the same calibration.  I even re-ran to make sure!

Why is this so?  I have a few ideas:

- The M-57 B is blueprinted by Doug and the M-57 HV is not.  Note that this M-57 HV is down on flow quite a bit from the previous HV pump that was blueprinted by Doug.

- The HV pump may be suffering from bad port timing.  In other words, the inlet and outlet ports may not be in the exact correct positions for optimal flow.  Mike Brunson turned me on to this from an old-time speed shop that "times" pumps in his hometown.

- You guys may be right about the pump pickup.  It's a stock 1/2" front sump pickup.  Maybe the HV pump is drawing on it too hard and flow is stalling.

I inspected the bottom covers on both pumps and they are fine.  Here's the M-57 B.  It just has polishing and a few very light scratches.  There is no real material loss and the oil stayed clean:



Here's the stock M-57 HV cover plate.  I noticed that it has a blue color!  I was hoping that it got the cow-hoof heat treat, but alas it nicks with a file just as easily as the other covers.  Must just be a thin surface treatment.  This one is also in really good shape with just a bit of polish:




Yes the HV pump did show cavitation when it was bypassing.  This one has a tighter spring - bypassing at about 92 psi.  There are bubbles in the oil after it ran, but not as severe as before.  The flow and pressure loss on the curves is not as severe either.  This may have a lot to do with this HV pump being a lot healthier than the old one:




So flame away!  I'm wondering about the pickup tube, but it may take some effort to source a better one...

Excellent data!  I use a lot of the B pumps, love them. 

[Barry_R]

Could you put a pressure/vacuum sensor in the pump inlet tube to measure inlet side effects?

[WConley]

Could you put a pressure/vacuum sensor in the pump inlet tube to measure inlet side effects?

Hi Barry -  That just might be worthwhile.  I see there are some reasonably priced solutions out there.  There are a couple of things in the queue first, but the pickup question has my interest.

- Bill

[427John]

I remember back in the late 70's and 80's when you had to put a HV in everything B pumps were actually hard to find,you had to special order it,if you were lucky they could find one at another store that someone ordered thinking it was a HV.

[pbf777]

Here are the charts:



Yes the HV pump did show cavitation when it was bypassing. 

     Sorry if I wasn't paying attention but by what observation did you utilize to determine the point at which the pump was bypassing?     

     Scott.

[WConley]

     Sorry if I wasn't paying attention but by what observation did you utilize to determine the point at which the pump was bypassing?     

     Scott.

The pressure peaks and the needle starts a small rapid fluctuation.  Flow starts rolling over as well.

[Blueoval77]

Conley , Sorry if I missed this before but did you try upping the by pass pressure to see if everything moved up with it ??

[WConley]

Conley , Sorry if I missed this before but did you try upping the by pass pressure to see if everything moved up with it ??

I haven't taken any of the pumps apart to shim the bypass springs, but it's clear that this would move the bypass pressure up.  The M-57 B has a stiffer spring.  It went up to 100 psi at 7,500 rpm and never hit bypass pressure.  The second HV pump happened to have a bit stiffer spring from the factory.  That one bypassed at 92 psi where the first one bypassed at 86 psi.  Shimming the spring in the HV pump would certainly improve things.

[Blueoval77]

I guess my point is , is bypass the only point where you see air introduced into the system ? And verifying it by then altering the characteristics of the one pump to then alter the time that cavitation begins ?
Yes we can say that another pump performs differently but havnt completely isolated the air to a certain event if that indeed can be done.
Part of the reason I ask this is the 427 system which has always been odd to me . Was Ford on to something by putting that bypass back there in the block ? Am I late for the party in that ? It was brought up but I cannot remember if that bypass opens before the pump by pass or after. If before was that to prevent in part whats happening on your test fixture ?

[MRadke]

In theory, it doesn't matter where the bypass is.  Whenever another discharge is opened, the vacuum on the suction side of the pump drops. If it drops too far, cavitation ensues.

[Cyclone03]

Comments on last two post before mine....
So unloading the pump,opening the bypass, creates a point that FLOW demand rises as it is trying to restore pressure . If the inlet is restrictive or cannot feed that demand then cavitation follows until the system (inlet flow?) is restored?

Early in the post it was by pass back into the inlet causing bubbles in the outlet side. That would make the side oiler relief logical (and a BOSS 302 racer I know system make sense) but any bypass opening can cause the same problem?

Back in 03 the thing to do was replace the dummy gauge in the 03 Marauder with a real one, then marvel, (or be terrified) by how much the pressure moved with 5w20 oil. I know the low viscosity oil was driven by mileage but still I don’t recall any pressure higher than what I remember to be a 20f start after a 12hour cold soak,it pegged the 100psi gauge at 2000 rpm but was well off 100psi in minutes.

I know,or think,the pump needs to supply all the leaks in the system with some left over. Isn’t high pressure a measure of excess oil flow? The relief should only open in the extreme,such as cold start ,high rpm,but not warm operation/ high rpm? Or do we want a number,say at 7000rpm,that does not exceed X?

It seems if pump cavitation happens anytime the relief opens our goal should be to operate well out of that limit,only using the relief to prevent blowing the filter off or breaking the pump drive. 

A year or so back I tried to ask a question that got no reply about oil viscosity and oil temp. Early in my cars restored life I cleaned it a lot,kept it car show ready because that what I was doing. As the season changed I noticed the ol 20w50 was showing 80-100 psi for most of my 6 mile drive home in the evening. The oil pan was uncomfortably warm as I did my pre show clean up (Friday about 11pm) I switched to 10w30 and even with warm evening temps,70f ish, the pan was very cool (?)  oil pressure still peaked around 100 on start but settled to about 70psi at 2200 ,just normal driving nothing extreme. By pass heating the oil,or the oil getting forced past tight clearances?