Author Topic: Oil Pump Dyno  (Read 53548 times)

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pbf777

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2021, 08:42:46 PM »
..........a 429CJ/SCJ dual entry oil pump?If so it would be interesting to see if it does the same thing.Maybe ford engineers addressed this issue with the next generation,but didn't see the payback for the FE since it was near the end of its life in cars.



     I wasn't at the meetings at Ford Motor Co. and I didn't get the memo either, but my belief is that the 429CJ/SCJ dual entry pump was the first acknowledgement of another failed issue of the Gerotor pump as the speeds picked up, but also coupled to the introduction of the 1.1" versus the .875" length rotor & scroll desired for greater volume delivery due to the greater leakage area within this engine series even versus the FE.

     One is often of the impression that the cavitation issue here is due to an insufficient pick-up tube delivery capacity, and although that often is a contributor, along with the previously discussed issue of the the by-pass retry effects, there is still more concern.  The real "problem", as I see it anyway, with the Gerotor pump is the presents of 5-lobe scroll & 4-lobe rotor, in that the area being presented as each say chamber is presented to the inlet manifolding of the pump to be filled with fluid is to great as speed picks up for the time element allotted.  At lower pump speeds it's O.K., the void presented by the rotor & scroll crosses the opening for the inlet plumbing system, oil flows in, but as the speed increases the time element decreases, the oil's mass precludes it's ability to fill the area so expediently and efficiently, and an additional pressure depression is realized within the pump body section it's self, this being something even less than that realized within the inlet system or pick-up tube.  When the rotor & scroll was lengthen from the .875" to the 1.1" as supplied with the 385 series engines the engineers found the issue to be to great to ignore, and I can say from experience the 385 engines definitely display a tendency towards oil pressure loss at speed to a greater degree than even the FE.

     With the "dual-inlet" the oil path thru the singular inlet flange is allowed access to both ends of the rotor & scroll chamber within the pump body, hence this effectively shortening the appeared length or distance the oil from either side is required to travel to fill and volume to pass in the allotted time, perhaps effectively doubling this filling rate, well probably not, but at least more efficiently all the same.  And I believe this to be of good intention, but production of these have been discontinued with no mention of the change.       :(

     And then there is the problem with the fact that the chamber voids to be filled are presented in an interrupted or start-stop effect.  This means that there isn't just a constant drawing of the oil from the sump, but rather the fluid must accelerate from a standstill to the velocity intended/required to fill the pump rotor & scroll chamber presented then this area is closed, the oil (with "bubbles"!) with perhaps inertia compresses against the blocked passage and even at times with synchronization reverses flow direction, then must be influenced with the next pump chamber void to reverse again!  This is probably why one witnessed the "bubbles" exiting the P.U. tube submerged in the effective sump.      :o

     Scott.

     And a fixed orifice bleed won't work as the pumps' delivery rate is not constant, even with R.P.M.s (yeah. I know it's a constant displacement unit), and the engines' bleed rates aren't either!  So this requires a dynamic regulation function.      ;)

Heo

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2021, 09:03:45 PM »
The crank by it self must "pump" a bit. The centrifugal force on the
oil in the crank from mains out to the crankpins must move a lot
of oil on high rpm



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Blueoval77

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2021, 09:11:02 PM »

Conley would you be inclined to give the Titan a spin if someone were to send you one ?

High flow dynamics seems to be the flavor that the 385 boys like.

I sure would!  I'm sure we would all like to see how more you get for that kind of cash  :)

I will contact them this week to see if I can get one . I wonder if the Rona has dissapeared all the high end oils pumps as well.................. :-\

jayb

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2021, 09:15:07 PM »
Great testing data and very interesting results, Bill.  On the dyno I regularly see the oil pressure dropping a bit as the engine exceeds 5500 RPM or so, and the air entrained in the oil when the bypass opens could certainly be a contributing factor.  I also recall seeing an Engine Masters episode where they saw the same thing, and reduced the problem by reducing the amount of oil in the pan, the conclusion being that windage from the crank was whipping the oil into a froth and that was causing reduced oil pressure. 

Never saw anything like that when I had the dry sump system on my big SOHC; that tank really seems to work.  I wonder if you could block the bypass on the stock pump, put a tap in the feed into the oil filter adapter with a pressure relief valve, and then cycle the bypass from that relief valve through a mini dry sump tank and back to the pan.  If that would work, it would at least reduce or eliminate the bubbles in the oil going back to the pan...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2021, 09:34:54 PM »
Hey guys - little update.  I ended up getting a Melling M-57B standard volume pump with the high pressure spring.  It seemed to run a heck of a lot smoother than that HV pump, and produced nice flow / pressure with no bypassing or aeration.  In fact, it made more pressure at higher rpm than that HV pump curve I posted  :o :o  Something is wrong...

I was a bit confused so I ran the HV pump again tonight, right after the M-57B.  The HV didn't really cavitate as much this time, but flow was down significantly.  It also made some strange sounds at higher rpm.  I took the pump apart and there is scoring on the rotors and the bottom plate.  It seems that I managed to hurt it.  I had been running the pump a lot while developing / debugging the rig.  I did change the oil a few times, but something seems to have gotten in there.

To be absolutely fair, I'm going to get a new M-57 HV pump this week and run it again.  I want to feel comfortable that I'm getting consistent data here.  Them's the breaks when trying to learn new things!

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2021, 10:03:46 PM »
There are always unexpected setbacks when doing new engineering work.  Ask me how I know this  ;D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 10:22:36 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2021, 10:54:05 PM »
Bill, the work that you're doing, and the fact that you choose to report it here are two of the reasons that this board is so head and shoulders above others on the internet. I thank you and salute you!!

KS

WConley

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2021, 11:50:25 PM »
Thanks for the kind words, Ken.  All of you guys have created a rare camaraderie here!  I'm happy to be a part of the underdog FE community  :)


Edit:  Jay, this "setback" for me is a $65.00 pump.  Somehow I think I'll find the will to carry on LOL!  Oh - and folks should check out my long time sig line below.  That says it all about engineering new stuff...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 12:01:16 AM by WConley »
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

427John

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2021, 03:15:49 AM »
Ironically me and a buddy of mine were having this conversation a  few months back how this type of pump was prone to aerating oil and yet we all still get in line to buy and install them.


     If I recall correctly, this "Gerotor" type pump design came from Caterpillar (tractor) of the 1920's - 30's, and it has proven to be, in my opinion a superior design at moderate speeds, those as intended by the O.E. for transportation vehicles; but as the engine R.P.M.'s have risen, particularly in the automotive racing endeavors, well it starts to become a problem.

     This thread has brought up the issue with the re-injection of an oil volume within the pumps inlet and yes there is the issue of the high-pressure (relative to the pressure on the other side of the relief and in the area of the return) and heated oil being injected at an angle perpendicular to the appreciated flow volumes' intended path as this can depending on the ratios of intervention create significant turbulence.  But this isn't the only issue, as with this oil volume comes vapor, little air bubbles compressed to the high pressure value and then released to the low pressure arena where they literally explode in dimension displacing the fluid volume causing, depending on the sum, perhaps even greater mayhem in causing interruption of homogeneous directional flow, creating an inefficient delivery.  And this vapor expansion can be quite violent also leading to an upset of the by-pass valve causing it to fail to regulate as intended including failure to reacquire seating timely, this further being realized as a loss in delivery volume and resultant pressure.     :o

     This is particularly where the idea of a remote by-pass can be appreciated.      ;)

     Scott.
You bring up a very good point about the volatility of the oil creating vapor bubbles,the turbulent conditions at the suction of the pump during bypass would be conducive to it.It will be interesting to see what the results are of the retest with the new pump will be.

427John

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2021, 03:52:39 AM »
Hey guys - little update.  I ended up getting a Melling M-57B standard volume pump with the high pressure spring.  It seemed to run a heck of a lot smoother than that HV pump, and produced nice flow / pressure with no bypassing or aeration.  In fact, it made more pressure at higher rpm than that HV pump curve I posted  :o :o  Something is wrong...

I was a bit confused so I ran the HV pump again tonight, right after the M-57B.  The HV didn't really cavitate as much this time, but flow was down significantly.  It also made some strange sounds at higher rpm.  I took the pump apart and there is scoring on the rotors and the bottom plate.  It seems that I managed to hurt it.  I had been running the pump a lot while developing / debugging the rig.  I did change the oil a few times, but something seems to have gotten in there.

To be absolutely fair, I'm going to get a new M-57 HV pump this week and run it again.  I want to feel comfortable that I'm getting consistent data here.  Them's the breaks when trying to learn new things!

- Bill
Bill did you ever see any fluctuation in pressure while this was happening?I could see the decrease in flow on the graph you posted but couldn't see a noticeable change in pressure on the graph.Is you pressure indication dampened or undampened?I ask because lacking a flowmeter and a way to have visible indication is there any indication that would show up on the pressure gage to tell that this is happening?After this happened was there a layer of visibly aerated oil in the sump?If so do you think it would show up on a dipstick?I'm looking forward to the results of your retest with the new pump,this can be very helpful in pinpointing this type of oiling problem.

Heo

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2021, 04:27:48 AM »
Hey guys - little update.  I ended up getting a Melling M-57B standard volume pump with the high pressure spring.  It seemed to run a heck of a lot smoother than that HV pump, and produced nice flow / pressure with no bypassing or aeration.  In fact, it made more pressure at higher rpm than that HV pump curve I posted  :o :o  Something is wrong...

I was a bit confused so I ran the HV pump again tonight, right after the M-57B.  The HV didn't really cavitate as much this time, but flow was down significantly.  It also made some strange sounds at higher rpm.  I took the pump apart and there is scoring on the rotors and the bottom plate.  It seems that I managed to hurt it.  I had been running the pump a lot while developing / debugging the rig.  I did change the oil a few times, but something seems to have gotten in there.

To be absolutely fair, I'm going to get a new M-57 HV pump this week and run it again.  I want to feel comfortable that I'm getting consistent data here.  Them's the breaks when trying to learn new things!

- Bill

A problem i had noticed on all Mellings pumps, The bottomplate is all to soft,just a piece of mild steel i allways disasemble the pumps and the bottom
plate shows scoring already then, before install ??? And take for example a Mercedes oilpump. When the engine need a rebuild
there is not a sign of wear on the bottom plate. When we still had the bolt factory here in town i made new bottom plates  and let them heat treat and
flatgrind the bottom plates, problem solved. But as all the useful industri we had in town it is al gone



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blykins

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2021, 07:01:57 AM »
On the dyno I regularly see the oil pressure dropping a bit as the engine exceeds 5500 RPM or so...

Jay, I caught this comment and I'm wondering where the difference would be?  Do you think dyno acceleration rate would have anything to do with it?

This is a M57B pump:



This is an M57HV (ignore the horrible A/F imbalance that we were working on):







« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 07:04:07 AM by blykins »
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jayb

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2021, 09:45:10 AM »
Brent, I only see it on the real high HP engines, guess I should've said that.  On all the dyno mules I tested for my book, it never showed up, but when I started doing 700+ HP stuff it appeared.  That was also mostly larger engines with vacuum pumps.  I'm inclined to think that the longer strokes will whip the oil in the pan up more, and that aeration of the oil is the culprit.  The vacuum pump would add to the problem. Could be other stuff too, including an oil level in the pan that is too high; that's what the Engine Master's episode had concluded.  I'm seeing it on the dyno mule I'm running now, and am running 7 quarts of oil in the big Milodon pan.  I just drained the oil and cut the filter apart yesterday, and everything looked perfect, so I'm not really worried about it.  I'm actually a little gun shy about running less oil, but it could be that would help...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

My427stang

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2021, 10:03:12 AM »
It would be interesting to see how foaming additives would work.  High pressure oil over fuel diesel injectors required a special additive package to be able to control it.  Easy to spend your money, but might be worth seeing what an off the shelf modern diesel oil does if it exists after the pump swap

Of course, it may not matter either as the crank may not even notice the bubbles as it gets pushed through, as long as the total oil clearance can maintain clearances at the bearing, but cool stuff.



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WConley

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Re: Oil Pump Dyno
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2021, 10:47:42 AM »
]Bill did you ever see any fluctuation in pressure while this was happening?I could see the decrease in flow on the graph you posted but couldn't see a noticeable change in pressure on the graph.Is you pressure indication dampened or undampened?I ask because lacking a flowmeter and a way to have visible indication is there any indication that would show up on the pressure gage to tell that this is happening?After this happened was there a layer of visibly aerated oil in the sump?If so do you think it would show up on a dipstick?I'm looking forward to the results of your retest with the new pump,this can be very helpful in pinpointing this type of oiling problem.

John I am using a damped pressure gauge, which could have been hiding pressure fluctuations.  I'm also seeing indications that there may have been something wrong with the original machining of this HV pump.  The bottom plate has a pretty good gouge in it (can catch it with a nail), but it's only on one side of the center rotor.  That tells me that the bottom plate isn't square to the rotor!  The "Heo - hardened" bottom plate couldn't handle it  :D

I'll post up some pictures later today.  The new HV pump will arrive in a few days and I'll re-run the test.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.