Author Topic: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2  (Read 11847 times)

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Barry_R

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2021, 11:04:36 AM »
Have to agree with Brent's observations - that seems like a "ton" of camshaft for the power level and RPM.  With darn near zero "real" information, I suspect that dropping cam down will make for a happier combination.  Something in that package is not playing well yet (hard to believe we are saying that about a mid-800 horsepower FE).  Might be something harmonically uncomfortable in the valvetrain relationship between cam and spring package - I have had a couple where having a bunch of spring did not really help and actually cost power.  Not really bounce so much as just unseating.

Might be a cross section deal?  Seems like a fairly odd result for sure - I would expect that high an RPM torque peak to give power at 7000 RPM or so.

In any case its really cool to see solid progress!

Joe-JDC

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2021, 11:42:50 AM »
I don't think the intake manifolds are limiting the engine in any way at this point.  The intakes flow over 540cfm through that adapter if I remember correctly.  The ports are roughly the size of an A-460 intake port.  Joe-JDC
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plovett

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2021, 12:06:17 PM »
Most of my really strong engines will make 2.1-2.2 HP per cfm of intake flow.  This engine is making 2.06 using the .800" lift flow number.  I think there's more there, with the heads as is, but I guess we'll see...

Well, 2.2 x 417 = 917.4 so maybe you guys are right about the cam.  I hope so as it is a relatively simple fix.  That's a lot of air/fuel moving in a very short time!

pl
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 01:54:40 PM by plovett »

e philpott

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2021, 02:05:39 PM »
What does a 385 Series -521 cid with A460 heads use for cam ? There must be a 50 of them every saturday in Super Pro at Kilkare , Jay's heads are or seem to be  close to those 460 heads , might be a good starting point instead of a the normal FE deal

FErocious

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2021, 03:47:07 PM »
Have to agree with Brent's observations - that seems like a "ton" of camshaft for the power level and RPM.  With darn near zero "real" information, I suspect that dropping cam down will make for a happier combination.  Something in that package is not playing well yet (hard to believe we are saying that about a mid-800 horsepower FE).  Might be something harmonically uncomfortable in the valvetrain relationship between cam and spring package - I have had a couple where having a bunch of spring did not really help and actually cost power.  Not really bounce so much as just unseating.

Might be a cross section deal?  Seems like a fairly odd result for sure - I would expect that high an RPM torque peak to give power at 7000 RPM or so.

In any case its really cool to see solid progress!


I agree with Barry. It appears that the engine may be experiencing a sonic-choke condition or the inability to feed the engine due to an overspeed of air/fuel somewhere in a critical area(or areas) of the port. A Pitot-probe measurement of airspeeds through the entire port ( port floor, roof ,corners, walls and center) would offer clues. If a Pitot tube is not available , a precise CSA mapping of the entire port will reveal localized airspeeds with some math.
Excessive intake reversion due to improper camshaft valve events may cause this as well. Additionally, imprecise exhaust event timing will have an affect on the blow-down efficiency of the port which will negatively impact the beneficial overlap cycle by increasing exhaust pumping losses. This leads to intake pumping losses ...................etc.
The question is this ; Does the induction system and valve lift curve satisfy the demands of the piston ? Is the airflow and air speed managed throughout the lift curve with respect to piston speed and position?

Just some thoughts.



Dumpling

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2021, 04:09:18 PM »
Is there a goal? Expectation?

Joe-JDC

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2021, 04:34:55 PM »
The goal initially was ~850 HP 4V as cast, 900 HP TR as cast NA.  The intake manifolds both flow at least 130% of the head flow, so they are not creating a high velocity/sonic bottleneck.  They could actually be a bit smaller and still work just fine.  The TFS FE heads flow ~330 cfm and the TFS Track Heat manifold out of the box flows 125% more than the head.   Joe-JDC
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cammerfe

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2021, 10:22:50 PM »
I'm sitting here with a huge grin on my face as I follow this discussion. THINGS ARE HAPPENING!!! ;D

KS

dmann

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2021, 10:27:30 PM »
It is so cool to see the effort put into FEs.  To so many folks on here, your dedication is awesome.  I’ve been on a bunch of forums, but this one is probably the best.   I watch these threads like the Game of Thrones episodes.

 :)

Dan

turbohunter

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2021, 10:29:12 PM »
I’m with you Ken.
850 hp not being what is needed/desired/expected is enough to make you giggle.
Love what is happening.
Way to be Jay.
Marc
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1968galaxie

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2021, 10:42:55 PM »
The goal initially was ~850 HP 4V as cast, 900 HP TR as cast NA.  The intake manifolds both flow at least 130% of the head flow, so they are not creating a high velocity/sonic bottleneck.  They could actually be a bit smaller and still work just fine.  The TFS FE heads flow ~330 cfm and the TFS Track Heat manifold out of the box flows 125% more than the head.   Joe-JDC

Intake manifold flow by itself is almost meaningless.
What happens when intake AND cylinder head are mated is what matters.
There are several BBC intake manifolds that have a lousy port angle into the cylinder head. This doesn't show up testing what the manifold flows. It does show up when the manifold is attached to the cylinder head.
TFS head flows 330 without intake - what does it flow with TFS intake attached? Less than 330.

Just my 2cents.




Joe-JDC

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2021, 11:57:17 PM »
Delete
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:24:12 AM by Joe-JDC »
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Joey120373

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2021, 12:32:02 AM »
Quote
.   There are several BBC intake manifolds that have a lousy port angle into the cylinder head. This doesn't show up testing what the manifold flows.   

That’s a valid point, but I doubt it applies here, it looks to me like Jay did just about everything he could to make the transition from the manifold to the adapter to the head to the valve as smooth and straight as possible.

I’m sure we could argue ( manifold ) port shape, volume and taper, as well as plenum volume and all that. But I doubt there are a lot of flow losses in the transitions. I would be curious if the intake port was tested while the intake was bolted on, I’m guessing that it was.

Katz427

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2021, 01:06:57 AM »
You have one of the most knowledgeable airflow people, right here, Joe Craine.
I know that Jay and the "brain trust"  will find the answer.

oldiron.fe

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Re: FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2021, 01:12:45 AM »
850hp   great torque   cam design just starting  - rocker ratio/cam ramps / valve stress - harmonics journey just starting --blower--nitro  turn up rock&roll  60s  snoco 260  @.35  gal for us really old guys that still remember  fun-fun-fun!!!
66' Fairlanes 427 (08/26/67- present)
66/67' Fairlanes
70' Mustang Fastback
66' Dually