MSD 8595 installation on 390 FE

[afret]

Here are a couple of sets of instructions, one from MSD and one from Ford, showing the correct distance between the distributor gear and the housing, plus end play.  They are not the same, so I have to assume that there is some difference in the distributors or gears.  This measurement is not your problem, but you should probably check it anyway.  Note that when you make the measurement from the bottom of the gear to the housing, the shaft should be pushed up into the distributor as far as possible:

The difference from the Ford number and the MSD number is Ford tells you to pull the shaft/gear out away from the body and MSD wants you to push the gear/shaft inward

[amdscooter]

Jay, thanks for that info. I have saved the pics for my archives. 

Well the dizzy came out without issue. A few dozen light taps with the smallest rubber tipped mallet I had on the bottom of the housing was all it took. Oil pump shaft stayed right where it should be thankfully. I fit my old oil pump drive shaft in the Mallory and it slides in and out without effort. I then slipped the Mallory dizzy slowly in and out of the bore, it starts to get tight as soon as it engages the cam gear. On mine it is well before it gets low enough to get on the oil pump shaft. Did it a few times for repeat ability and there is no doubt in my mind the gear is the issue.

Took some initial measurements of the old and new dizzy housings where they would enter the bore. They are are within .001 of each other. No signs of scuffing or installation burrs beyond what twisting to adjust the timing would do on either. Upper and lower bore in the block look fine as well. The old gear measured .447 tall. The new gear measured .479 tall. Not sure if the extra .032 makes any difference. Both gears measured about 1.413 overall diameter. I'll check the dimensions you posted above a bit later. I stuffed the old dizzy back in the bore to keep any low flying birds out.  I have no way to measure the pitch.. but that is what I suspect is the issue.

Would you guys recommend going to Comp (the 268H cam installed is made by them) or Mallory the dizzy manufacturer for a replacement gear?


fe66comet I took that measurement for you. I came up with between .493~.497 from different positions on that landing to the top of the oil pump shaft. Mind you I was using the back end of my caliper and not a depth micrometer for the measurement. Flying with what I have on hand here.  I did ensure the shaft was fully seated before taking the measurements. Hope that helps you out. 

[amdscooter]

Here are a couple of sets of instructions, one from MSD and one from Ford, showing the correct distance between the distributor gear and the housing, plus end play.  They are not the same, so I have to assume that there is some difference in the distributors or gears.  This measurement is not your problem, but you should probably check it anyway.  Note that when you make the measurement from the bottom of the gear to the housing, the shaft should be pushed up into the distributor as far as possible:

The difference from the Ford number and the MSD number is Ford tells you to pull the shaft/gear out away from the body and MSD wants you to push the gear/shaft inward

^^^ Thanks for that. Just measured the MSD with the thrust collar/shaft pushed all the way against the body. I get between 3.069~3.066. While it look as if my gear is possibly a good .019 too low on the shaft, I don't think that's my present issue as the resistance starts immediately as soon as the gear on the dizzy engages the cam gear. 

[ScotiaFE]

When you have your distributor out could you do me a favour?
I need to determine the correct height of the oil pump shaft in relation to some part of the block.
Be very much appreciated.
reason for this i have fitted a main cap girdle and i think i may have a oil pump shaft that is to short.

With your dizzy check clearance on the china wall at front of valley, may be twisting dizzy of line.
I have a 390 block and i had to file the china wall back a bit as my dizzy was just catching on the block casting. Was fine with stock dizzy, aftermarket dizzy was contacting it. Was catching in last 1/2" of installed height.

You may be looking for one of these.

http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/-strse-74/FE-Ford-1-fdsh-4%22-Billet/Detail.bok

[funsummer]

AmdScooter,
Thanks for that measurement, will be checking mine this weekend.

Scotia
I have a longer shaft, just not sure if i fitted it!!!

[fe66comet]

I can't tell you how many engines I have worked on that had extra parts or a socket in the pan and no tray. The oil alone will hold it in the bottom of the pan.

[amdscooter]

I had to get a gear from comp cams just for my FE can. The one for the stock can was a slightly different pitch which would cause binding.

Do you recall which gear you bought? I just got off the horn with Gabriel at Comp Cams and he states they do not sell a standard replacement for a regular flat tappet cam distributor drive gear. Composite, yes. Bronze, yes. But he states neither of those would last.  /scratches head.

[Cyclone03]

Is this a new build,Intake install? I ask because if you had the intake off and did not use a distributer to "pilot" the hole it may be out of line enough to cock the distributer just that much to bind things up.

[amdscooter]

Is this a new build,Intake install? I ask because if you had the intake off and did not use a distributer to "pilot" the hole it may be out of line enough to cock the distributer just that much to bind things up.

It is a "newish" rebuild.. but it's been up and running for months. The stock dizzy fits fine.

[afret]

^^^ Thanks for that. Just measured the MSD with the thrust collar/shaft pushed all the way against the body. I get between 3.069~3.066. While it look as if my gear is possibly a good .019 too low on the shaft, I don't think that's my present issue as the resistance starts immediately as soon as the gear on the dizzy engages the cam gear.

That's pretty far off.   If you look into the distributor hole in the intake, you should see a shelf on the block that the distributor gear rides on.  The gear gets pulled downward as it rotates and sits on this shelf as it spins.  If it's too low, the gear would be pushed down on the block shelf and would bind when the hold down bolt/nut is tightened.  If it's too high, the gear won't reach the shelf and the bearing in the distributor would wear out quickly as it would be taking all the downward force.   
There is only a bit of leeway in gear placement on the shaft. The less endplay the distributor has, the more accurate it has to be.  The stock distributor has quite a bit of endplay.  I don't recall how much the MSD unit has. 
A Crane distributor I have had almost no endplay so the gear placement had to be dead on.  It was way off from Crane and would not have worked as is.

If you have turned the engine over with the MSD distributor bolted down, you might look at the bottom of the gear to see if you see any sign of wear.  Also if you can measure the distributor shaft endplay on the bench, you can compare the number with the distributor in the engine.   There should still be shaft endplay up and down but the number should be smaller than on the bench.  If you measure this, you have to make sure you measure the actual shaft endplay and not the slop in the advance mechanism.

I guess there's always a chance MSD might have made an error and stuck a gear from a different engine on there.  If you can't get a gear from MSD, Crane makes a steel gear for the bigger MSD shaft that works with flat tappet and roller cams.

http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/288-290.pdf
 
I would think if the gear is the problem, MSD should make it right.

[BruceS]

+1 on the shaft and clip in the pan!  My '67 Mustang GT 390 saw many more street miles, and some drag race action, too... It was my only transport at the time. I had pulled it out to put the dist on a machine to check the advance curve.

[amdscooter]

^^^ Thanks for that. Just measured the MSD with the thrust collar/shaft pushed all the way against the body. I get between 3.069~3.066. While it look as if my gear is possibly a good .019 too low on the shaft, I don't think that's my present issue as the resistance starts immediately as soon as the gear on the dizzy engages the cam gear.

That's pretty far off.   If you look into the distributor hole in the intake, you should see a shelf on the block that the distributor gear rides on.  The gear gets pulled downward as it rotates and sits on this shelf as it spins.  If it's too low, the gear would be pushed down on the block shelf and would bind when the hold down bolt/nut is tightened.  If it's too high, the gear won't reach the shelf and the bearing in the distributor would wear out quickly as it would be taking all the downward force.   
There is only a bit of leeway in gear placement on the shaft. The less endplay the distributor has, the more accurate it has to be.  The stock distributor has quite a bit of endplay.  I don't recall how much the MSD unit has. 
A Crane distributor I have had almost no endplay so the gear placement had to be dead on.  It was way off from Crane and would not have worked as is.

If you have turned the engine over with the MSD distributor bolted down, you might look at the bottom of the gear to see if you see any sign of wear.  Also if you can measure the distributor shaft endplay on the bench, you can compare the number with the distributor in the engine.   There should still be shaft endplay up and down but the number should be smaller than on the bench.  If you measure this, you have to make sure you measure the actual shaft endplay and not the slop in the advance mechanism.

I guess there's always a chance MSD might have made an error and stuck a gear from a different engine on there.  If you can't get a gear from MSD, Crane makes a steel gear for the bigger MSD shaft that works with flat tappet and roller cams.

http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/288-290.pdf
 
I would think if the gear is the problem, MSD should make it right.

I tried to call MSD today and was on hold forever... the rotating commercial was loud and annoyin and kept saying they were close on weekends.. but also that I was next to be served. I'm going to get the skinny from them before I do anything. The Dizzy is date coded 7/10/12 and I just bought it. They should make it right.

Oh, and Gabriel at Comp stated I should not use a bronze or composite dizzy gear with my cam as it'd wear out too fast.. really?

[amdscooter]

Just got off the phone with MSD.. CS rep named Peter who sounded annoyed I asked his name at the beginning of our conversation insisted my issue was "core shift" before shooting me over to the RMA department without notice. Whatever. Prolly cost me as much in shipping as it would to order another gear. Would this Mallory gear be a suitable replacement?

Mallory 29419PD - Mallory Distributor Accessories
http://www.jegs.com/i/Mallory/650/29419PD/10002/-1

Or should I stick with what MSD recommends as a replacement for the ready to run 8595?

Ford 351C-460 Iron Distributor Gear
Part No. 85812
http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Acc_/Distributor_Gears/85812_-_Ford_351C-460_Iron_Distributor_Gear.aspx

Thanks
Scott

**edit**

I was just looking at the specs on that 85812 gear MSD lists as a replacement for the 8595 dizzy and it's for a .530 dia shaft. My 8595 has a .468 shaft and I cannot locate an MSD replacement for the 8595 with a .468 shaft.    Looks like I'll be calling them again tomorrow.

[afret]

Quick question for the crowd. My new Mallory 8595, blaster2 coil and plug wires arrived this week and I finally had some time today to install them.

A .467 diameter shaft is usually on Ford and Mallory distributors.   You said you had a Mallory distributor on your first post with an MSD number.  The MSD shaft should be .531.  What brand do you have?

[amdscooter]

Quick question for the crowd. My new Mallory 8595, blaster2 coil and plug wires arrived this week and I finally had some time today to install them.

A .467 diameter shaft is usually on Ford and Mallory distributors.   You said you had a Mallory distributor on your first post with an MSD number.  The MSD shaft should be .531.  What brand do you have?

It's a MSD Ready To Run 8595 with a .467 shaft.