Author Topic: Building two identical engines.....  (Read 4347 times)

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blykins

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Building two identical engines.....
« on: December 23, 2020, 06:01:59 PM »
....but I will make one variable change. 

Given that the bore/stroke, heads, intake, oil pan, et al, will be the same, what would be the most informative variable? 

1.  Identical camshafts, but vary the ICL drastically between engines

2.  Half point compression difference between engines

3.  Aggressive cam lobes vs. non-aggressive cam lobes, keeping .050" duration, LSA, ICL, and lift the same between the two

4.  1.5/1.5/3mm rings on one engine, 1/1/2mm rings on the other

What do you all think?  I can change any of those very easily in the engine design time.   I tend to lean towards camshaft tests, that's where I've gained the most data, but I'm willing to look at other tests to gain data.
Brent Lykins
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GerryP

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2020, 06:09:59 PM »
I'd pick option 1, but that's really hard to commit to without knowing anything about the heads.  I'd have to go with 1.  Compression isn't going to matter much unless you know the cam specs and in essence, build the compression to suit the cam.  You wouldn't ordinarily do it that way, but okay.   Option 3 is a maybe but are we talking a real lazy lobe?  Option 4 is the only one that is a given for power that you just can't screw it up, but not as much potential as option 1.

70tp

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2020, 06:10:21 PM »
I vote for love separation angle tests.  But then it starts into “where do you stop”?   

Joe-JDC

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2020, 06:32:41 PM »
How large an engine?  Camshaft ICL changes on dyno can duplicate those differences, but you can't change compression, or ring thicknesses.  I tend to think the compression would net best difference all else being same.  Rings that small wont show any difference because there is no way to compare them between the two engines unless you swap pistons from one engine to the other.  Now, thin ring pack and more compression in one engine would show a difference that you can quantify IMO.  Joe-JDC 
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frnkeore

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2020, 06:55:14 PM »
I would go with a cam test, in the common range, 108 vs 114 and/or the lobe test but, in either, you'll be changing the dynamic CR. That will kinda be a CR test, too.

For a ring test, a 1/16 x 3/16 vs 1mm x 2mm, to give a good understanding of what drag can do.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 01:40:26 AM by frnkeore »
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plovett

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2020, 08:10:39 PM »
Number 3 is the only one I haven't seen in some form already.  I think that it is a pretty cool idea. 

pl

KsHighboy

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2020, 09:56:02 PM »
I like number 3 followed by number 1. Aggressive lobes is kind of a  modern camshaft design. I also like the wide LSA VS  narrow LSA idea.

blykins

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2020, 06:34:37 AM »
When I said aggressive vs non-aggressive lobes, I didn't mean a real drastic change.  I learned a long time ago that real aggressive hydraulic roller lobes lost horsepower and sounded like a bag of gravel under the intake.   FE valve train is a lot heavier than most guys realize and it takes a good amount of spring pressure to overcome that.   There are several lobe families that I'm comfortable with using on a hydraulic roller, which is what these engines will be.  It won't be a drastic change, but it may be enough I think. 

Also, I'm not going to keep testing, each engine will get what it gets and after the dyno is finished, that's it.   I'll save the 352 for multiple iterations.   

I think I'd be able to dyno both of these engines on the same day, with the same carb, etc. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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plovett

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2020, 07:27:54 AM »
Ah I didn't realize it was going to be a hydraulic roller.  That would change my vote.  The most informative of your choices would then be ICL changes, in my opinion.

The LSA comparisons are always interesting.  One thing that I don't recall seeing is an LSA comparison with the same ICL.   There have been plenty of LSA tests, but they always decrease the ICL as they decrease the LSA.  e.g. 114 LSA with a 110 ICL, 108 LSA with a 104 ICL.   They usually then conclude that the tighter LSA made more low and mid range power without considering the change in ICL.

As stated in the above post, Wide vs. Narrow LSA changes are interesting and often debated, regardless of whether you move the ICL independently.   

Another idea would be use two cams, but increase the static compression ratio with later intake closing point.   The ICL could be the only variable or it could be coupled with LSA.   It might be a half to three quarters of a point of compression.   I remember one LSA test where the tighter LSA's made more power (especially torque), but they also kept decreasing the ICL and therefore the DCR.   If they kept increasing the static compression ratio with the wider LSA's and later ICL's I think the wider LSA's might have faired better.   That would obviously be hard to do on one engine, but with two......

pl

blykins

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2020, 07:47:18 AM »
Ah I didn't realize it was going to be a hydraulic roller.  That would change my vote.  The most informative of your choices would then be ICL changes, in my opinion.

The LSA comparisons are always interesting.  One thing that I don't recall seeing is an LSA comparison with the same ICL.   There have been plenty of LSA tests, but they always decrease the ICL as they decrease the LSA.  e.g. 114 LSA with a 110 ICL, 108 LSA with a 104 ICL.   They usually then conclude that the tighter LSA made more low and mid range power without considering the change in ICL.

As stated in the above post, Wide vs. Narrow LSA changes are interesting and often debated, regardless of whether you move the ICL independently.   

Another idea would be use two cams, but increase the static compression ratio with later intake closing point.   The ICL could be the only variable or it could be coupled with LSA.   It might be a half to three quarters of a point of compression.   I remember one LSA test where the tighter LSA's made more power (especially torque), but they also kept decreasing the ICL and therefore the DCR.   If they kept increasing the static compression ratio with the wider LSA's and later ICL's I think the wider LSA's might have faired better.   That would obviously be hard to do on one engine, but with two......

pl

I won't be varying the LSA a lot (or probably not at all) because I need to watch overlap.  These are street engines that need some vacuum.   I look at LSA as an afterthought anyway as I center a lot of things around overlap.  If you keep widening the LSA on an engine on an engine that needs overlap, then you're going to lose power.   In the same token, if you keep tightening it up on an engine that can't handle it, then you push all your charge out the exhaust port....and lose power.  I generally see a sizeable torque gain on specific engines with a tight LSA, to the point where I sometimes use a 107-108-109 LSA on a street engine used for towing or pulling, but the combination has to warrant it. 

Two of the tests that I think would help guys the most would be the compression ratio test and the ICL test.   I get a lot of guys ordering pistons and saying, "I want to get as close as I possibly can to X compression ratio because I want the most power I can get."  If a half point of compression only gives you 10 hp, then would you risk a ping or detonation on 10 hp?  I've seen trends on some engines where I'm comfortable enough to answer that, but rarely do we dyno two identical engines.  Another one is, "Advance that cam as far as you can for low rpm power, or retard it as much as you can for high end power."  It doesn't always work that way as it depends on the combination and how hard the cylinder is pulling on the port.  I've seen combinations with really advanced cam timing that made more high end and average horsepower.

The last chance I had the opportunity to do this, I did two 445's, same heads, same intake, carb, compression, etc., but changed the duration split while holding the overlap and lift the same.  I had a good hunch based on past dyno tests on what the difference would be, but it's good to see actual numbers.  For any factory head, TFS, etc., I would never consider anything less than an 8-10 degree split based on the results of those tests.   It was a 12 hp bump, which may not seem like much, but if you're paying for a camshaft, why not pay for 12 more hp?

 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 08:39:45 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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Barry_R

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2020, 10:00:28 AM »
I have done many of those during EMC or continued builds over the years.  A couple of them are fairly well defined for me, but seems like you "change what you think you know" when you cycle back to something a couple years later.  If I were going to pick I might want to try ICL stuff again. 

When I have done serious ICL moves in EMC competitions it was working to optimize a defined power band with some surprisingly short duration, but really aggressive cams.  I ended up in places I never though I'd go (installed centerlines under 100 degrees).  It led me to go far smaller on camshaft than I used to use on street engines.  I never fully investigated the big ICL ranges on a milder build, but it could be fun.

Compression will generally do exactly what you think it will.  And I agree on risk/reward on that.  It's one of my main gripes about folks that fixate on DCR calcs - at peak torque that 12:1 engine is gonna be a 12:1 engine even with a big cam & it's gonna swing into potential detonation at an RPM where you can't hear it.  OEMs can manage away from that by killing spark and fuel there, but you ain't doing that with a Holley and a Duraspark...

To clearly see the ring variable on our level of test equipment you'd need to go from a 5/64 pack to a 1.0mm set.  Its definitely there - but single or low double digit.  A nice percentage of the gain on rings is in lighter loaded RPM ranges - part throttle and cruise.

plovett

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2020, 11:04:40 AM »

Another idea would be use two cams, but increase the static compression ratio with later intake closing point.   The ICL could be the only variable or it could be coupled with LSA.   It might be a half to three quarters of a point of compression.   I remember one LSA test where the tighter LSA's made more power (especially torque), but they also kept decreasing the ICL and therefore the DCR.   If they kept increasing the static compression ratio with the wider LSA's and later ICL's I think the wider LSA's might have faired better.   That would obviously be hard to do on one engine, but with two......

pl


Two of the tests that I think would help guys the most would be the compression ratio test and the ICL test.   I get a lot of guys ordering pistons and saying, "I want to get as close as I possibly can to X compression ratio because I want the most power I can get."  If a half point of compression only gives you 10 hp, then would you risk a ping or detonation on 10 hp?  I've seen trends on some engines where I'm comfortable enough to answer that, but rarely do we dyno two identical engines.  Another one is, "Advance that cam as far as you can for low rpm power, or retard it as much as you can for high end power."  It doesn't always work that way as it depends on the combination and how hard the cylinder is pulling on the port.  I've seen combinations with really advanced cam timing that made more high end and average horsepower.

 

What I was suggesting was a "DCR" test.  Assume the engine is octane limited.   Then assume that DCR is a good measure of that condition.  Adjust the DCR to maintain it with two very different cams of the same duration.

Engine one has an early ICL (say like 102) with a lower static compression ratio (say like 10.0:1).  Engine two has a later ICL (say like 110) with a higher static compression ratio (about 0.7 to 0.75 more) to maintain the same DCR.


One thing to see would be whether the increased compression brings back the torque lost with the later ICL and presumably wider LSA.   

With that big of a difference in ICL's, I would assume LSA would move with it.  The engine community now often talks about overlap they way it used to about ICL.  Maybe in ten years we'll be saying exhaust opening point is "IT".  LOL!  I know it's all important, but it's funny how one thing tends to get fixated on every decade or so. 

Anyhoo.....  It'll be interesting and useful to see the results, whatever you decide to do. 

pl

blykins

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2020, 11:07:34 AM »
I think I've narrowed it down to the ICL swing or the compression ratio difference.  Pretty straightforward. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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www.customfordcams.com
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My427stang

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2020, 12:52:57 PM »
I think I've narrowed it down to the ICL swing or the compression ratio difference.  Pretty straightforward.

Chrome valve covers versus painted....   :)

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plovett

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Re: Building two identical engines.....
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2020, 01:12:30 PM »

When I have done serious ICL moves in EMC competitions it was working to optimize a defined power band with some surprisingly short duration, but really aggressive cams.  I ended up in places I never though I'd go (installed centerlines under 100 degrees).  It led me to go far smaller on camshaft than I used to use on street engines.  I never fully investigated the big ICL ranges on a milder build, but it could be fun.


Barry, I don't know if you have played with the iterators on computer programs, but they can return some crazy cam recommendations depending on your input.   Like 25 or 30 degrees more exhaust duration.  Seems ridiculous, but who knows?   If I were the Bill Gates of engine building I would try all that crazy stuff.   A lot of current LS cams defy our previous logic......

It's funny you mentioned installed intake centerlines and EMC engines.   EMC scoring is biased heavily to low and mid range. Sometimes when I input a desire for midrange power I get results eerily similar to some EMC cams.  Like tight LSA's and very early ICL's.   ICL's in the range of 96-100 degrees.    Seems crazy at first glance, but like you say, "engines can't read".

pl
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 01:23:05 PM by plovett »