Author Topic: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft  (Read 2177 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4460
    • View Profile
Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« on: November 11, 2020, 08:51:43 AM »
Just bench racing here, and I'm no engineer, so I'm probably missing something obvious.

Why hasn't anyone attempted to use a 1/4 speed camshaft?

I was looking at the design of vintage radial airplane engines, and they use a 'cam' that has a much slower rotational speed but has multiple lobes. The design is pretty much mandatory for radial engines, but why hasn't something like this been attempted on automotive or drag race engines? The benefits (as far as I can see) would be pretty significant. A slower speed would mean that you wouldn't be trying to "launch" the lifter off of the lobe, so I think that a much lower spring pressure could be used. That would be a huge benefit for multiple reasons: mainly, less rotational drag and much better valvetrain control, which is the main failure point on most race engines.

It would require a cam with 2 'risers' per lobe, and a special gear set that would reduce cam speed to half of what is currently used. I realize that would have a packaging issue to stay under a stock type timing cover, and maybe it's not possible to fit it, but it would be a non issue if a remote water pump were used and a spacer were used behind the cover (or a deeper cover was used). Of course this isn't really possible on your normal street car without some fairly significant reworking of the front radiator support area, but not on a drag only application. With electronic ignition systems, distributors aren't even needed anymore, but one could still be driven off of the gear set if desired (think front mount distributors, readily available through MSD and others).

One of the issues I can think of is the diameter of the gears needed to reduce the cam to 1/4 speed. But with a vastly decreased load on the valvetrain from less spring pressure, thinner gears could be utilized, so the gears could be double stacked to get the proper reduction. I'm also not sure how a 1/4 speed cam lobe 'riser' would look. Maybe the ramp would be too aggressive to get the valve open fast enough, since it has a shorter time in rotation to match the movement of the piston? And yes, a dry sump oil system would be required, but I'm talking about full race engines here.

What else am I missing? Surely this has been thought of at some point through the years? Heck, it was used on radial engines dating back over a hundred years ago.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

allrightmike

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2020, 08:59:21 AM »
Shaller made a 1/4 speed cam in the 60s for racing, not sure how successful. Hod Rod mag. had a feature on it.

Dumpling

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7405
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2020, 09:42:55 AM »
I'm sure it's a combination of all the points you mentioned being a requirement to run a quarter speed cam, plus the fact that valvetrain technology for a standard cam has come along so far that a standard half speed cam can be used in all applications.  Plus costs associated with tooling the cam blanks for a quarter speed cam (or using an expensive billet blank), perhaps different cam grinding equipment (maybe a smaller diameter grinding wheel would be required on the cam grinder?), rules limitations for the professional race classes, requirement to run a crank trigger and individual coil packs rather than a standard distributor (or else a distributor with a 2X gear drive for the rotor), etc. etc.  Just too many roadblocks for a questionable performance gain...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

mbrunson427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2020, 12:32:14 PM »
Interesting topic! I had never thought of that before. Between a 1/4 speed cam and a flat plane crank you could make a pretty funky FE
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4460
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2020, 12:59:36 PM »
https://www.fordfe.com/indy-1963-t66942.html
Shaller made a 1/4 speed cam in the 60s for racing, not sure how successful. Hod Rod mag. had a feature on it.

I figured I wasn't the first to think of something like this. I've never heard of the Schaller set-up, and I don't know much about the old Indy stuff.

I'm sure it's a combination of all the points you mentioned being a requirement to run a quarter speed cam, plus the fact that valvetrain technology for a standard cam has come along so far that a standard half speed cam can be used in all applications.  Plus costs associated with tooling the cam blanks for a quarter speed cam (or using an expensive billet blank), perhaps different cam grinding equipment (maybe a smaller diameter grinding wheel would be required on the cam grinder?), rules limitations for the professional race classes, requirement to run a crank trigger and individual coil packs rather than a standard distributor (or else a distributor with a 2X gear drive for the rotor), etc. etc.  Just too many roadblocks for a questionable performance gain...

I knew it would be out of the realm of feasibility for 99.9% of the stuff out there, but for max effort stuff where the rules are limited, it still seems like something that would provide significant benefits. Most all aftermarket stuff does not add a single horsepower, but is aimed at reliability and providing longevity, and even though technology has advanced a bunch, there are still lots of valvetrain issues with big HP engines. You know as well as I do that the number 1 killer on Drag Week is valvetrain issues. And with all the huge mega-dollar, blank sheet custom engine combos out there, surely money isn't the issue. Think along the lines of Sonnys mega-sized custom drag engines, or the all billet engines being made these days, like the one that Steve Morris built for Bailey.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

gt350hr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2020, 01:20:00 PM »
  The "modern V8" crank counterweights will not allow the "second lobe" of a 1/4 speed cam was the main reason they lost popularity.

BattlestarGalactic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1296
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2020, 03:32:36 PM »
What about in a SOHC motor?  Or some other OHC motor.   Plenty of room and likely more room for gearing changes.
Larry

JamesonRacing

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • 1966 - What a great year for FOMOCO
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2020, 03:51:45 PM »
I guess I don't see the benefit.  The valve timing would need to be the same regardless of how many lobes and the speed of the cam, so the springs would still be working just as hard.  You would be limited to 180 degrees of cam rotation for valve motion as well on a symmetrical profile.  The valve springs would still need to control the valve opening and closing at the same rate.  The the only parts that would be slowed down would be the cam and followers, which aren't typically the failure point or limiting factor to RPM.
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

Tommy A

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2020, 04:04:48 PM »
I had a friend that called Red Line Cams that got some of 'Buss Schallers' masters and he said it would be labor intensive the cost would 3,500 min to do it!!!!!

gt350hr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2020, 12:23:54 PM »
   Slower camshaft speed also reduces lifter velocity and requires less valve spring pressure. 60 years (or more) ago we had FEW chrome silicon "racing springs" let alone exotic steels like we enjoy now.

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
    • View Profile
Re: Bench racing.....1/4 speed camshaft
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2020, 01:18:46 PM »
I was thinking crank counterweights would be an issue.

Also given the limited diameter of the cam itself, the lifter may never be fully on the seat with a performance camshaft.