My not so excellent adventure at track

[6667fan]

Due to thrust bearing wear my Fairlane’s 482 came apart this past winter and was refreshed including the return of my Dove TW and Quick Fuel 715s. Since engine was out and I wanted to improve on the previous season’s performance at track, (11.8 @122), I went for an adjustable clutch and elected to have my top loader face plated. It took all summer to get to track due to job and Covid but was at my local track last week.
Upon Mike Norcia’s recommendation I started with the Ram pressure plate at 2400 lbs. It is a counter weighted unit that has a range of 1800-2400 and was spec’ed for this street car by Ram. There is an aluminum flywheel on engine. Mike said to make a pass with full pressure to see how car would react and go from there. After a bog at launch, ( assuming I left too low with aluminum wheel), I started speedshifting trans. My Long shifter went into third but quickly the trans went into first gear. I put it in neutral and coasted in. I was only shifting at 5000 rpm as did not have track experience with either the clutch or trans.
From the track I rang up Chris at Long Shifters to ask if he thought I had messed up the shifter install and he said with that much clutch and my power level 2400 was too much for trans to shift second to third without some slippage between shifts. I then rang up Mike Norcia to ask if I should take pressure plate down to 1800 and he said to try it. I put car up on stands and got all the tools out but as I was by myself I did not want to risk another pass without help to get car on trailer, ( if trans got shelled), so ended up deciding not to adjust clutch and make any more passes.
I did drop pressure to 1800 two days later at home  and made some rips on my divided highway proving grounds at 5500-6000 rpms but tires were spinning going into third so don’t know for certain if I’m all set for return to track next spring.
Thoughts?

[My427stang]

I am not an adjustable clutch guy, but if you were in second, how would a clutch problem put you back in first instead of going into third?  It would have to be a mechanical movement of the 1-2 arm past neutral detent, which would tell me shifter issue or driver error.

I have seen one of my guys hold a lock out handle up in the excitement of launch, otherwise it seems like you either have a shifter issue or adjustment for 1-2 that is pulling it into 1st when it should go into neutral. 

Now if you came out of second into neutral, because you couldn't engage third, I may buy the clutch issue, but sounds like you have an issue with 2-3 gate in the shifter or 2-N adjustment

I assume this an inline shifter?

[e philpott]

Better fix the "third into first" before you do anything . I run a McLeod Sof-Loc on street with aluminum flywheel but my clutch turned up is only 1100 lbs of pressure , track should be in the 250 to 350 pounds base pressure plate setting for my type of clutch . I have no idea with the Ram 2400-1800 pounds clutch

[6667fan]

Hi all, it is an in line, vertigate shifter. I never had this happen anywhere but on the track. Shifter performs well in all other situations and was aligned on bench on trans along with maintaining careful positioning of rods after installation in car.  The shifter was in the forward position when the downshift occurred. The trans was in third briefly before going into a lower gear. It was not a 1-2-1 shift. I assumed it was first and Chris said that is what is likely to occur if trans won’t accept the face plated third gear shift at speed. I’m using the clutch on all shifts. On the street I double clutch it. Chris mentioned deflection that occurs when trying to shift a wound up top loader into third as an inherent weakness of those transmissions, (of course he would like to sell me a new G-Force), but I have heard of TL third gear horror stories.
Thanks for responding.

[Stangman]

666fan I don’t have any 4 speed knowledge or words of wisdom but I do hope you get back out there and have some fun. Good luck

[Rory428]

I have never had that going back into first from 2nd situation with either my Jerico or G Force G101A, but it did happen to a buddys small block Jerico Comet. Long sold him a spring loaded lockout lever for his Pistol Grip V Gate shifter. As for the clutch, what type of disc does it have? On both the FE and the small block, I use McLeod Soft Lok clutches with sintered iron discs (10 1/2" for the FE, 10" for the SBF), with aluminum flywheels. The discs are the HCF models, and base pressures are in the 280-300 pound range. I don`t recall ever using more than 700 lbs on the FE, and the small block is at only 1 turn, which is about 450 pounds. With the FE, I typically dropped the clutch in the 6000-6200 range, small block typically 6600 RPM. Both have minimal counterweight (short steel bolt & nut combos). 1800-2400 pounds seems very high if you have a sintered iron disc, unless RAM uses some slippery style of disc.

[My427stang]

Hi Ross, it is an in line, vertigate shifter. I never had this happen anywhere but on the track. Shifter performs well in all other situations and was aligned on bench on trans along with maintaining careful positioning of rods after installation in car.  The shifter was in the forward position when the downshift occurred. The trans was in third briefly before going into a lower gear. It was not a 1-2-1 shift. I assumed it was first and Chris said that is what is likely to occur if trans won’t accept the face plated third gear shift at speed. I’m using the clutch on all shifts. On the street I double clutch it. Chris mentioned deflection that occurs when trying to shift a wound up top loader into third as an inherent weakness of those transmissions, (of course he would like to sell me a new G-Force), but I have heard of TL third gear horror stories.
Thanks for responding.

I just don't see how a different shift fork, gears and "syncro" assembly (I know yours is modified) between 1-2 and 3-4 could allow a rebound out of 3rd to push into 1st.  They are miles away in the box and connected only by the shifter.  Unless of course having the tranny push back at the 3-4 fork somehow "ungates" the shifter.  Really wild

Can this be shifted clutchless?  When I had the Nash Pro-shift in my car, it was hard to get myself to do it, but if it works, makes for a great shift

[cjshaker]

I have never had that going back into first from 2nd situation with either my Jerico or G Force G101A, but it did happen to a buddys small block Jerico Comet.

Having the trans go from 2nd back to 1st is different than what the OP is saying happened. A gate lever (or whatever that thing is called that drops into the lower groove) that doesn't drop properly when shifting would cause the 2nd to 1st scenario, but there is no way the trans went into 3rd, then suddenly go back to 1st on its own. That's physically impossible for the transmission and shifter. If anything, it sounds like the clutch was letting loose and letting the engine spin up, making it sound like it dropped gears. If it had actually gone back into 1st, it would have thrown you forward as the car engine braked and spun the engine to the moon. And it likely would have made you crap your pants as you tried to maintain control and stop the car from sliding all over the track.

I'd look the clutch over good to make sure the flywheel or pressure plate wasn't glazed over. Was the flywheel new? Did it feel like the tires spun after the bog? If so, maybe the clutch slipped and glazed them over? I know it doesn't seem likely with it being at full pressure, but something happened, and it wasn't the tranny going from 3rd to 1st.

[6667fan]

There was a big slow down and tire smoke. The trans was definitely in third for a second or more. Then a bang and it was in a lower gear. Perhaps it was second gear it went to but the shifter did not jump from third to second. I’m not sure that is even possible. Trans definitely went to a lower gear. The degree of deceleration was not overwhelming but was under control which may point to the trans going into second gear?

The disc is one of Ram’s 900 series. It is full metallic with urethane encapsulated springs. Has an 8 spring hub. The cover plate was installed with 9.3 grams on the levers.

I will check in with David Kee this week and see if I can get his opinion on what may have happened.

I appreciate all the responses.

[frnkeore]

Every time I read this, I think of motor mounts.

Does it have a hydraulic actuated clutch or the stock cross bar and push rod?

[6667fan]

It’s an aftermarket engine mount kit that is a very stiff poly. Not solid but close. Trans crossmember mount is poly also but not same manufacturer as engine mount kit. Engine/trans assembly is not walking/lifting.
The T/O bearing is traditional mechanical with factory Z bar linkage.

[6667fan]

I was able to speak with David Kee this a.m.  He suggested I try to confirm that the interlock pin is still intact. If it dropped out or is somehow otherwise compromised that might explain the trans going from one range to another. Unfortunately it will be awhile before I can crawl under car and start moving levers and checking the drain plug as I had rotator cuff surgery Friday.

Be well all

[frnkeore]

I wish you well. I had it done, this time of year, 8 years ago.

The first 6 weeks are very frustrating but, once you get the bolster off and start therapy, it will be painful, too but, you'll  start to see that it was worth it.

Best wishes.

[Stangman]

Curious if you have any video. Ok found it very nice.

[6667fan]

Stangman, the video in the drag racing forum is with the other clutch and transmission combo. I don’t have one good pass yet with the new set up. The car also has a new stance now due to a rear spring relocation kit having been installed and new back leaf sections from Calvert Racing.