Author Topic: 360 horse 352  (Read 7773 times)

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RJP

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2020, 06:53:54 PM »
Yep, just checked my carb, same FoMoCo number as yours....I never heard it referred to as a "Boxcar" number. New to me. Date code on my carb is 183.

WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #106 on: October 07, 2020, 11:41:30 AM »
Werby, your list misses a few factory ringers like the -DT and -BF List 2953


I agree tho, if given the task of carbureting the 352HP, I’d be starting with the 715.

C4AF-DT yes I looked in my table, have that down aa 850cfm.
Was that as early as 1964-1/2, for the NASCAR HiRiser maybe?

I'm also showing 780cfm (up from 715cfm) for the late 63 and 64 427 LoRisers, does that sound right?

I do remember our 58 Merc 430 Bulldozer came with a 600cfm Holley 1850 - don't recall if it was a "boxcar" number or EDC or what. I still have one of those Boxcar 1850 carbs though, the best running 600 Holley I've got.

WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #107 on: October 07, 2020, 11:56:16 AM »
They made the the 4100 as large as 674 cfm and a 1.19 venturi.

http://mustangtek.com/carburetors/FordCarburetors.htm

From my 1960 Ford Shop Manual, it looks like all the 300 hp, 4v's, that year were 4100's. My manual doesn't have the 360 hp engine in it.

I think there's some "Grade Inflation" in those 4100 CFM numbers. IIRC Pony started doing that. If you rate the carb at 2.0" Hg or 2.2" Hg instead of the more common 1.5" Hg, then they're about right.

Bob Sprowl flowed some 4100s a while back - dry flow, not wet. He got
1.08 = 440-450cfm at 1.5" Hg dry
1.12 = 500-520cfm at 1.5" Hg dry

I use
1.08 = 440cfm wet
1.12 = 500cfm wet
1.19 = 553cfm wet

I do show the big 1.19 4100 as only used on the HiTorq 1958 383/330 Merc, which came with either the ~550cfm 1.19 Autolite 4100 or a 550cfm Holley, so the 2 sizes jive.

Given that sizing in 1958 for the low-revving MEL (550cfm for 330hp, 600cfm for 360hp rated), you'd think the 352/360hp would have earned the 600cfm version. Maybe they just didn't want to embarrass the 348 Chev too badly. Or the funny looking ram-induction Mopars.

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #108 on: October 07, 2020, 02:32:48 PM »
That does make since, based on their venturi size. Also, based on the venturi size, the 4100 seems to flow a bit better than the Holley.
Frank

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #109 on: October 07, 2020, 02:50:39 PM »
If someone has a 4100 that is in good shape, I would be happy to test it against the stock Holley
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #110 on: October 07, 2020, 03:42:25 PM »

C4AF-DT yes I looked in my table, have that down aa 850cfm.
Was that as early as 1964-1/2, for the NASCAR HiRiser maybe?

I'm also showing 780cfm (up from 715cfm) for the late 63 and 64 427 LoRisers, does that sound right?

The DT and BF I have heard from trusted folks that bought Sohc's new and they had those carbs on them.  Of course it's been 50-60years, so who knows.  Either way, they never came on a production car, sounds a lot like factory ringers.

62: 2652 550cfm
63: 2652-1 550cfm
Late 63+ 2804/2805 600cfm
65+ for MR 715's BC/BD 3300/3001

BU/BT's were 780 as were a handful of others.  Lotsa other random ones like List 2919 showed up for whatever reason.  3255 and 3255-1 were really hugely different as well, seems like they made a bunch for some specific purpose but they were never widespread.  I've got all this filed, or at least what I've seen so far, as lotsa Ford carbs pass through here.

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2020, 06:56:19 PM »
Royce, I'm got two 1.12 and maybe a 1.08 but, no 1.19. Let me check them out and I'll get back to you.
Frank

WerbyFord

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #112 on: October 07, 2020, 10:18:46 PM »
The date code on my Boxcar 1850S is 453.
3-digit date code is
Year
Month (A=Nov B=Dec)
Week
So mine is 1964 May 3rd week

922 = 1959 Feb 2nd week
183 = 1961 Aug 3rd week
Looks like they made a lot of these Boxcar 1850s. No wonder if they all run like mine, fastest 600 Holley I have., in fact, the fastest 500-600cfm ANYTHING I have.
I do have a 352/360hp carb, have not run it yet at all let alone in a Shootout.
Need the right engine & the right time.

I have done lots of carb shootouts on the GTECH.
Most recent was on a 285hp 390, basically a bone stock 390/300 build.
Shakira, my best 735 Holley, won but barely
Snooky, my best 500cfm Autolite 1.12, was 2nd.
An un-named c4af-r 500 Autolite 1.12 came in a very slow 3rd until I swapped boosters, then a very close 3rd.

I didn't have time to run my Boxcar 1850 in that shootout but pretty sure it would have won.

The car sure didn't need that whole 735cfm, so the fact that the big Holley won tells me that the Autolite 4100, even my best one, is just maybe 1% shy of being the equal of a downleg Holley, but will not outrun it.

CFM for CFM, the Autolite 4100 will outrun the Carterbrock AFB, making about 3% more apparent power when run on the clock. My best Autolite 4100 will make about 1% more power, cfm for cfm, than my best Autolite 4300, but most Autolite 4300s are "just ok", like about the equal of a Carter AFB. However, I do find that carbs are all over the map. Drew probably knows why but sometimes I cant sort it out. Some are down as much as 10% on power (derived from the GTECH), and the 4100s show a particularly high spread. Even the Holleys can show maybe a 3% spread between a "just ok" Holley and my best ones.

When my carbs win a Shootout they get names, like Shakira, Freckman, Snooky, Tia, Tamera, Fiona, and Melinda or MEL for short (the 430 carb). The others run "Good" but not "great".

I wish there was an easier way to clean boosters. A curse upon whomever pushed putting water (ethanol) in our pump gas.

frnkeore

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2020, 12:58:12 AM »
I would say that is a excellent showing for a 1.12, 4100, since it's down 275 cfm and 100 cfm to the 1850, even if the 1850 would have won.

It also shows the the 4100 is a extremely efficient since the total venturi area is 3.94 sq in vs the 1850's 5.16. That's 126.77 cfm per sq in for the 4100 and 116.72 for the 1850. Both with 1 9/16' throttles. Not only that but, they are much lighter.

The boosters are huge on the 4100 and looking down the bore, it looks like they would restrict flow but, they must give better atomization and higher velocity flow?

They were/are looked down on but, I have heard, over the years, that they give better mileage than the Holleys.
Frank

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2020, 02:10:54 AM »
I typically have 40-60 of the first 1850’s in here. 58-65 is the year range I’ve seen.

Nice units. Even the -1 is worth running over any modern 600.

bsprowl

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2020, 09:09:06 PM »
I've got a 1.19.  It was OK but I've moved and it will take be a day or two to find it.

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2020, 08:18:18 AM »
Bob  You want to sell or loan it.. If you just want to loan I will give it a good tune up..
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

bsprowl

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2020, 08:44:39 PM »
Send me a message with your address and I get it to you as a loan until your done with it.

Royce

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2020, 03:25:59 PM »
My friend Rick Martin dug out a cam he was sure came out of a 61 HiPo 390  Do the casting numbers help identify it?

number on it is XBA backwards and fomoco ,lift is about 470 before lash
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC winner
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car  Currently engineless,  Boss 9 transplant coming soon.
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1958 Mercury Monterey  430cu in 400hp 3x2 Super Marauder
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1960 Starliner 352/360hp, real one
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project

427John

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Re: 360 horse 352
« Reply #119 on: October 27, 2020, 01:36:42 AM »
Can somebody direct me to a site that lists all the parts that would come on the 360/352 that would be different than the standard 352.
I don't know of any site that lists the differences,but the old Hot Rod article was fairly accurate,a buddy of mine had a 60 sunliner 360 horse car that he bought from the 2nd owner that had owned it since 1962 he had been trying to get the car for years,anyway,when we disassembled the original motor we compared what we took off to another 1960 352 engine he had and to what the article said,and found that the oil pan,oil pump and pickup tube were different,also the harmonic balancer,the camshaft,lifters ,pushrods,rocker arms,cylinder heads,intake and exhaust manifolds,distributor,fuel pump,timing cover,and starter were all different.While the generator itself appeared to be the same as the standard engine the pulley was the large diameter hi po pulley as used on the later 390HP,406 and 427.The starter looked the same as the standard but the cable stud was clocked at a different position which was actually done by the drive end plate.The block had a B9AE casting number and we could find nothing unique about it except that oil pump passage seemed to be opened up a little but we weren't sure if it was factory.The crankshaft didn't seem to have any special attributes and the connecting rods were even the narrow beam rods,but we had heard the change to the wide beam rods was a mid year change and his car was pretty early.The oil pan had different baffles in it and while the main sump was the same depth as standard the slanted area behind it was a little deeper,the oil pump didn't have the extended relief valve passage like the later hi po pumps but it did have slightly bigger inlet and outlet holes than a standard pump.The timing cover looked similar to the earlier stamped steel timing covers but had a timing pointer to match the heavier harmonic balancer.The lifters, pushrods,and rocker assemblies all appeared to be the same as the 58 dumbell lifter pieces,and the fuel pump was the AC type with the remote mount cannister fuel filter.It also used a 6 blade fixed cooling fan similar to those used on the later Hi po's.From what I understand there were running changes thru the model year but this is what we observed on his car.He was able to document his car by being fortunate enough to find the build sheet behind one of the door panels.It had all the externally visible clues of a hi po car,3/8 fuel line,different starter cable routing,big brakes,big bearing 9 inch,shorty cast headers complete with original exhaust with muffler shop installed lakes plugs so we were fairly certain it was a real Hi po and then he found the build sheet and clinched it.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 01:50:25 AM by 427John »