shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?

[My427stang]

Well that is some serious stuff for sure.  I looked back at my notes and my intake heights (Ebok FE heads) varied from 1.947" to 1.957".  My exhaust heights varied from 1.922" to 1.935".   I shimmed all my intakes by varying amounts and shimmed one of my exhausts to get my final values all in the 1.922"-1.930" range. 

I am not sure how good my measurement technique is, though.  I assume you have to use some "authority" to get the valve seated well enough to give you a good value without a spring on there?

I also didn't measure my pressures, but theoretically they are pretty close. 

Paulie,

You did well, and that's likely why it works well, combined with a cam lobe that supports it.  The next step would have been to check the springs to see if the installed height was what the actual springs wanted, check open pressure, and continue through to coil bind. 

Wild thing is, its about 800-1000 for a ticket to an accurate spring pressure tester, cheap ones are all over the map.  I used Brent's Intercomp and then went and bought one for myself.

As far as measuring installed height, using a spring micrometer is pretty easy, make sure it fits the retainer properly, and zonk it down.  Using a fine thread and a knurled surface, it's not hard to exceed closed pressure.  Not exact, without heat in the seat and valve but you are also likely exceeding pressure and compensating automatically...(I don't purposely compensate, I just like to try to forecast where my measurements may change, and the advantage of the threads gives plenty of leverage)

In fact, it makes me want to go see how much pressure I can put in the spring tester by expanding the spring mic   After our "spring" cleaning is done...mama says we need to make the house right LOL

[My427stang]

....but some guys have reported hydro rollers struggling over 5500 (with 6300ish being a more common upper limit)

That used to be the case about 12-13 years ago.  If you checked the forums back then, everyone thought that 5500 rpm was like a wall that couldn't be penetrated.   Now we're touching 7500. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_JY47anClA

A lot of guys don't understand how heavy some FE components are....especially if you're still running 3/8" stem valves.  Even the 11/32" valves are heavy compared to BBC standards.   Coupling heavy valves with inadequate seat pressures and aggressive lobes exacerbated the issue.   I learned a big lesson when I tried Comp XFI lobes.  Customer constantly complained of noise and not being able to pull the rpms.   It didn't make sense to me that I could build a SBF that would turn 7000 with a hydraulic roller, but had trouble with FE's, so that led to a lot of dyno testing and experimentation. 

On a separate note....

Joe, I used a camshaft ground by that gentleman before in a 445ci Windsor.  It was a hydraulic roller and was so aggressive that it was showing all kinds of valvetrain issues (float, laziness up top, etc.), even with his recommended valve spring pressures.  That's why I started doing my own thing.

Preaching to the choir here, but the other factor is oil.  Who would have expected that we would be building performance FEs, for regular street use, with 10w30.  When I was young, first thing oil change would get Kendall Green 20w50...race ready LOL  If the standard old school warrior fills up his HR engine with his favorite 20w50 or 30w, it's a different story, even if they do play by the other rules.

But man, I do remember that Windsor cam, what a mess, and to the question on base circles, a monster with small base circles and steep ramps could get ugly.  However, the uncontrollable lobes we are talking, are the differences from a Lunati Voodoo HR oor as Brent mentioned, an XFI lobe, compared to a Comp Magnum on a standard 1.438 base circle.  There is a trade off, slower ramps (lazy) add advertised and overlap, but if that is managed (and manageable) for the build, the lazy lobe will "generally" be easier to control.  That goes for flat tappets and solids too.

[plovett]

Man...I enjoyed this thread. The rather violent valve float videos were very educational. Seeing all the shimmy or wobble of those springs makes me think the conical type have a great advantage in that the always changing dimensions reduce harmonics. Not that I care about Uber high RPM operation but the occasional over rev' is bound to happen.

Also learned that trolling engine builders might not be ideal.

There was no trolling that I saw in the initial responses, at all.  Just different opinions.  Did I mention that the sky is blue? 

pl

But is your blue sky the same as my blue sky?

zactly!   

[plovett]

Well that is some serious stuff for sure.  I looked back at my notes and my intake heights (Ebok FE heads) varied from 1.947" to 1.957".  My exhaust heights varied from 1.922" to 1.935".   I shimmed all my intakes by varying amounts and shimmed one of my exhausts to get my final values all in the 1.922"-1.930" range. 

I am not sure how good my measurement technique is, though.  I assume you have to use some "authority" to get the valve seated well enough to give you a good value without a spring on there?

I also didn't measure my pressures, but theoretically they are pretty close. 

Paulie,

You did well, and that's likely why it works well, combined with a cam lobe that supports it.  The next step would have been to check the springs to see if the installed height was what the actual springs wanted, check open pressure, and continue through to coil bind. 

Wild thing is, its about 800-1000 for a ticket to an accurate spring pressure tester, cheap ones are all over the map.  I used Brent's Intercomp and then went and bought one for myself.

As far as measuring installed height, using a spring micrometer is pretty easy, make sure it fits the retainer properly, and zonk it down.  Using a fine thread and a knurled surface, it's not hard to exceed closed pressure.  Not exact, without heat in the seat and valve but you are also likely exceeding pressure and compensating automatically...(I don't purposely compensate, I just like to try to forecast where my measurements may change, and the advantage of the threads gives plenty of leverage)

In fact, it makes me want to go see how much pressure I can put in the spring tester by expanding the spring mic   After our "spring" cleaning is done...mama says we need to make the house right LOL

Thanks Ross.  I've run mine up to 7300 with no issues, though I think I ought to shift around 6800-6900.  Just a solid flat tappet, but aggressive lobes.   I don't think I'll be buying a spring pressure tester as I wouldn't use it very often.  Be nice to have one, though.  That's an interesting thought regarding exceeding the true spring pressure with the micrometer.  I haven't used mine in some time, but I seem to remember not feeling super confident about how hard to twist it.   It seems like I could change the measured height depending on how frisky I was feeling.

pl

[My427stang]

I tighten mine right down, within reason, I am not using vise grips or anything LOL  That being said, you may add a little with strong hands, but not so much to change spring pressure that much

That being said, what are you running for a cam, (.050 and advertised and brand) and which springs?   

[plovett]

Comp Cams 279/287 advertised, 252/260 @0.050".  Crane 96879 springs.

[Gaugster]

So a general question about measurements confidence. When you have doubts, how do you address them?

Personally I'm fond of taking multiple measurements (three typically) in order to see how repeatable my setup is. It's time consuming since you have to breakdown and reassemble/realign your tools and gauge. It's a hobby for me vs a business. With experience and knowledge of what to expect this becomes redundant I suppose.

Absolutely accuracy depends on calibrated tools and that's some next level stuff. I'm reminded of Jay's posts about calibrating his torque wrenches at home. It's the value you should get when paying someone for the work. Important but can be mitigated by taking the part supplier's measurements and backing them up with your own. Always a wise step. What came in the box might not be what was measured on the data sheet. It happens.

[blykins]

So a general question about measurements confidence. When you have doubts, how do you address them?

Personally I'm fond of taking multiple measurements (three typically) in order to see how repeatable my setup is. It's time consuming since you have to breakdown and reassemble/realign your tools and gauge. It's a hobby for me vs a business. With experience and knowledge of what to expect this becomes redundant I suppose.

Absolutely accuracy depends on calibrated tools and that's some next level stuff. I'm reminded of Jay's posts about calibrating his torque wrenches at home. It's the value you should get when paying someone for the work. Important but can be mitigated by taking the part supplier's measurements and backing them up with your own. Always a wise step. What came in the box might not be what was measured on the data sheet. It happens.

I think confidence comes with usage. 

Your point about calibration is paramount though.  I never pick up a mic without checking it on a standard.  You can check a spring mic against a set of calipers.  You can calibrate torque wrenches.  There are also checking springs for spring testers. 

Once I know everything is calibrated, the measurements I get are what they are and then I look at how to deal with them. 

[My427stang]

Same here, first time I used each of my spring mics, I checked with calipers, on the first one I checked with a 1-2 mic as well.  Now what I do is after the first measurement I just check with calipers at the height I am playing.  However, realize with springs, even at a 400 lb rate, .01 is only 4 lbs, it's not the same as measuring oil clearances.

With all other stuff, I do the same as Brent, stick a standard in it before I start and any time I don't like what I am seeing I do it again.  With a bore gauge, I check zero in the mic before every hole, and same thing, if I don't like what I see, first step is check mic, check zero on gauge, and go from there. 

Amazingly, room temp causes me more fits on a cold day than anything.  Nebraska winters I have to let the shop warm up or bore gauges go wonky

This is one of those "takes longer to type than to do" posts, you get in a rhythm that includes check periodically and check when the loose nut running the tool gets an odd number.

As far as the spring tester.  I have a set of springs Brent tested for me when we were comparing tools, they tested the same on mine when I bought it.  I toss one of those on the tester if I don't see the numbers I expect, but name brand springs have been pretty consistent lately.

[WConley]

Yup!   Trust but verify.  I always check my tool setter on the CNC with gauge blocks.  You never know whose paws have been on your tools. 

I remember years ago when I worked in my school's aeronautical engineering machine shop.  The head of the shop had some nice vintage Starrett micrometers.  Some dimwit PhD student decided they would be great drill press clamps   

[blykins]

I forgot to add...

On spring mics, I tighten them by hand until I can't make them move anymore.  Just habit.  A couple thou of install height distance isn't going to be of any kind of detriment though.  Your valve spring won't know .002-.003" and if you're dialing in coil bind clearance, .048" is going to be the same as .050" or .052".  As a matter of fact, I can guarantee you that when the engine is running, you're going to have more clearance than what you think you had.

If you set up all your springs thinking you have .600" at the valve, check it with your actual valve spring and pushrod.  You'd be surprised sometimes at the amount of lift you lose and that goes up with spring pressure or inadequate pushrod diameter/thickness. 

As a matter of fact, most rocker arms have deflection engineered into the design.  Check a rocker arm ratio with a checking spring, then go back and check it with the actual spring.   If you do this exercise once, you'll think, "Why am I measuring .625" lift when it should be .600"?"  Always check your piston valve clearance, rocker geometry, lift at valve, etc., etc., with the actual valve spring and pushrod you're going to use. 

Also, always keep each spring locator, retainer, and lock pair with the valve that you checked install height with.  Locks can vary by a few thou, as well as retainers and locators.  I always go through and measure each one, then line them up in a row the way they will be assembled.   

[funsummer]

Can i ask what is best way to measure valve travel when hyd roller or hyd flat lifters are going to be used?
Is it safe to bottom out the lifter when a adjustable rocker is used or will that effect geometry to much and give a false valve lift number?
Joel

[My427stang]

Can i ask what is best way to measure valve travel when hyd roller or hyd flat lifters are going to be used?
Is it safe to bottom out the lifter when a adjustable rocker is used or will that effect geometry to much and give a false valve lift number?
Joel

If you are talking checking for valve clearance, most of us have a solid lifter to use with an adjustable pushrod, however, I also have a few slugs that I have made to fit the top of a hyd lifter, which makes things easy too.  Regardless, you will get more lift with a checking spring than you will with a real spring, but it's worst case, and so much easier LOL

I probably wouldn't trust bottoming the lifter as you can't really see what is going on inside, and with a checking spring, it wouldn't bottom anyway. In theory it would work, but so easy to do it other ways, it's not really worth it. 

FYI, I used a flange headed bolt to make my slugs, ground the head down to fit the ID of the top of the lifter body, flange sits on the surface, then partially drilled a locating hole for the pushrod.  Think upside down hat.  10 minutes on a bench grinder.  Works well and cheap