Author Topic: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?  (Read 6507 times)

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My427stang

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2020, 07:17:27 PM »
Seems to be some consensus that the distance to coil bind height might be the number one priority, at least on a solid roller.

Also seems to be some consensus that the other factors are important, too.   Can't optimize one measure without any consideration to the others. 

pl

Not my position, in fact just look at Manley vs PAC both have entirely different bind distance recommendations. No benefit or wisdom by putting one variable ahead of another.
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Posi67

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2020, 07:27:30 PM »
I agree with seat pressure and coil bind being the most important. On a big Cam high winder the seat pressure and lash get's checked after every pass. If a spring is going away it comes out. Open pressure is whatever the spring spec makes it.

Got lift?

blykins

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2020, 07:30:51 PM »
Seems to be some consensus that the distance to coil bind height might be the number one priority, at least on a solid roller.

Also seems to be some consensus that the other factors are important, too.   Can't optimize one measure without any consideration to the others. 

pl

Not my position, in fact just look at Manley vs PAC both have entirely different bind distance recommendations. No benefit or wisdom by putting one variable ahead of another.

Right.  In some discussions with my PAC rep, there were a few springs that they recommended running at .100" coil bind clearance.   Some others were .050".  Manley gives you a warning, something like, "DO NOT GO UNDER THIS RECOMMENDED OPEN HEIGHT OR SPRING DAMAGE CAN OCCUR" .  I ignored them once on a bracket engine and set them up at .060" coil bind clearance.  It broke a valve spring during a season. 
Brent Lykins
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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plovett

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2020, 07:50:45 PM »
Oh my gosh.  The sky is blue. 

pl

Barry_R

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2020, 08:03:50 PM »
This!  You want the coil bind clearance to be relatively small (like .050") and consistent in order to prevent coil surge / loss of valve control.  I've found in my testing that damping the springs in this way is better than adding spring pressure.

I remember when you ran this test.  Pretty enlightening. Might be worth a re-post as a refresher

WConley

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2020, 09:32:35 PM »
Barry -

I'm going to have to dig through some of my old hard drives in the drawer.  That was a while ago...  The post write-ups haven't made it to my current archives.

Where did all of the time go?  The good news is that the spin test machine is about to ride again, but doing something completely different!
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Nightmist66

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WConley

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2020, 11:11:58 PM »
Nightmist - That last video really underscores the benefits of running near coil bind.  That's 10,000 rpm!

Of course, the spring has to be able to take that kind of deflection as Brent alluded to.

Thanks! 
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

frnkeore

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2020, 01:28:17 AM »
So then, Brent, you do not care what the coil bind clearance is, right?

You'll run a spring .25 off coil blind or .000 clearance, right? What ever it takes to have low seat pressure, right?

Conical springs produce lower valve mass and can help but, they can't negate the need for open pressure.

So, give me a example of a actual spring, for a 8K (500 over rev factor) engine, with 1.78 installed ht, and .600 net lift and we will say 150 lb seat pressure. You say you an have anything you want, right? Oh, I forgot, it needs hyd rollers so I don't have to fiddle with it. What's the spring number I want?

I'll give you a break and won't require positive rotating retainers :)

We have ran 8k engines, for many years w/o conical springs. I would say, before you were born, even. As heavy a seat pressure as you had to take, to get the open pressure and longevity needed. Coil bind has to be addressed as well as fatigue.

For a street engine at 5500 or less, seat pressure isn't as important. Low lift and low duration, with longer ramps, won't get you into any area, where your gonna pull a valve apart or shorten valve seat life, beyond normal rebuild life. You can triple spring prices with conicals. That's fine, if you don't need the money someplace else. Each part in a engine costs money, there are a LOT of parts. I make my decisions of where I spend my money and I spend it wisely.

Correct coil bind settings, will lengthen spring life as that is where they are designed to work.

To answer the PO's question:

Quote
The main one is, would you shim the side with lower lift to get the same open pressure, especially if the lower lift one is the intake?
 

You want to set them at the same coil bind clearance, for best results.

I'm typing this slow because I know you can't read fast.

Brent, I note that you've heavily edited this post. I read most of it when out for dinner, with my wife, while waiting for dinner. To address one of the edited portions of your post, I was building a roller cam, 427, when you were in diapers. I also read with comprehension and know how to multiply.

Look up above.  Look at what I said about coil bind clearance.  Look at what WConley quoted me saying about coil bind clearance. 

Does it look like I don't care about coil bind clearance?  I routinely run .050-.060" and believe it or not, some spring manufacturers specifically want some of their springs at .100" CBC, so I do that sometimes too. 

I'm glad you, at least are taking my advice about setting coil bind at .050 - .100, thank you.

NOT ONE engine builder looks at the open pressure only without looking at the seat pressures to make sure the valves don't float to eternity and if you think that seat pressure in a street engine at 5500 or less isn't important, you've got more to learn than what I thought.   Go build an FE with a hydraulic roller at 5500 and tell me seat pressure isn't important when you're listening to the valves float.
I never said you ignore seat pressure, what I was referring to, is AFTER you pick a spring with enough open pressure and CB clearance, to keep the lifter in contact with the lobe, you don't have any choice on the seat pressure. Move one, you move the other, with the same lift or, do you have a way to change that, conical or not? I grant you conical springs, reduce valve weight and adding a LW retainer, allowing less open pressure and that helps but, there is a limit and I want to be sure the lifter stays on the lobe. Also, not everyone wants or can afford conical's. Good springs are not cheap and double that for conical springs.

You have, one lift, to control, per lobe, you need to set the CB clearance with that lift and that only leaves you with one seat pressure. W/o the correct open pressure, you stand the real and detrimental case of the lifter lofting over the lobe and crashing on the closing ramp and seat.

If your seat pressure is greater than you want and you think it may bounce on the seat, you change the rate of the closing side of the ramp, to slow it down.

I think you need to talk to a cam grinder and discuss closing ramp rates, it may solve some of your cam problems.

If a spring mfg says not to do something, I lesson and would ask why. Broken springs are bad. You also need to know what they are used for. Case in point, the Open Comp car (oval track not drag racing), I sponsored lessened to a drag engine builder and he talked them into his springs, it cost them a whole engine. Do your research, and ask questions, not all springs are created equal.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 01:39:03 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

winr1

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2020, 03:24:34 AM »
Frank, you are into oval track ?? ..... 4 cylinder, 8 cylinder ??



Was curious as to lofting lifters, read some articles where some lofted lifters to open the valve higher

What kind of closing ramp would they have had to make the parts survive ??



Ricky.


blykins

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2020, 06:22:26 AM »
Frank, you are into oval track ?? ..... 4 cylinder, 8 cylinder ??



Was curious as to lofting lifters, read some articles where some lofted lifters to open the valve higher

What kind of closing ramp would they have had to make the parts survive ??



Ricky.

Ricky, those are called cheater cams.  They're extremely hard on everything, but in a rules application where you have a lift rule, it's a good way to get around it.  The lift will check correct at tech but it will throw more lift in there when the engine is running. 
Brent Lykins
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Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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blykins

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2020, 06:38:57 AM »
So then, Brent, you do not care what the coil bind clearance is, right?

You'll run a spring .25 off coil blind or .000 clearance, right? What ever it takes to have low seat pressure, right?

Conical springs produce lower valve mass and can help but, they can't negate the need for open pressure.

So, give me a example of a actual spring, for a 8K (500 over rev factor) engine, with 1.78 installed ht, and .600 net lift and we will say 150 lb seat pressure. You say you an have anything you want, right? Oh, I forgot, it needs hyd rollers so I don't have to fiddle with it. What's the spring number I want?

I'll give you a break and won't require positive rotating retainers :)

We have ran 8k engines, for many years w/o conical springs. I would say, before you were born, even. As heavy a seat pressure as you had to take, to get the open pressure and longevity needed. Coil bind has to be addressed as well as fatigue.

For a street engine at 5500 or less, seat pressure isn't as important. Low lift and low duration, with longer ramps, won't get you into any area, where your gonna pull a valve apart or shorten valve seat life, beyond normal rebuild life. You can triple spring prices with conicals. That's fine, if you don't need the money someplace else. Each part in a engine costs money, there are a LOT of parts. I make my decisions of where I spend my money and I spend it wisely.

Correct coil bind settings, will lengthen spring life as that is where they are designed to work.

To answer the PO's question:

Quote
The main one is, would you shim the side with lower lift to get the same open pressure, especially if the lower lift one is the intake?
 

You want to set them at the same coil bind clearance, for best results.

I'm typing this slow because I know you can't read fast.

Brent, I note that you've heavily edited this post. I read most of it when out for dinner, with my wife, while waiting for dinner. To address one of the edited portions of your post, I was building a roller cam, 427, when you were in diapers. I also read with comprehension and know how to multiply.

Look up above.  Look at what I said about coil bind clearance.  Look at what WConley quoted me saying about coil bind clearance. 

Does it look like I don't care about coil bind clearance?  I routinely run .050-.060" and believe it or not, some spring manufacturers specifically want some of their springs at .100" CBC, so I do that sometimes too. 

I'm glad you, at least are taking my advice about setting coil bind at .050 - .100, thank you.

NOT ONE engine builder looks at the open pressure only without looking at the seat pressures to make sure the valves don't float to eternity and if you think that seat pressure in a street engine at 5500 or less isn't important, you've got more to learn than what I thought.   Go build an FE with a hydraulic roller at 5500 and tell me seat pressure isn't important when you're listening to the valves float.
I never said you ignore seat pressure, what I was referring to, is AFTER you pick a spring with enough open pressure and CB clearance, to keep the lifter in contact with the lobe, you don't have any choice on the seat pressure. Move one, you move the other, with the same lift or, do you have a way to change that, conical or not? I grant you conical springs, reduce valve weight and adding a LW retainer, allowing less open pressure and that helps but, there is a limit and I want to be sure the lifter stays on the lobe. Also, not everyone wants or can afford conical's. Good springs are not cheap and double that for conical springs.

You have, one lift, to control, per lobe, you need to set the CB clearance with that lift and that only leaves you with one seat pressure. W/o the correct open pressure, you stand the real and detrimental case of the lifter lofting over the lobe and crashing on the closing ramp and seat.

If your seat pressure is greater than you want and you think it may bounce on the seat, you change the rate of the closing side of the ramp, to slow it down.

I think you need to talk to a cam grinder and discuss closing ramp rates, it may solve some of your cam problems.

If a spring mfg says not to do something, I lesson and would ask why. Broken springs are bad. You also need to know what they are used for. Case in point, the Open Comp car (oval track not drag racing), I sponsored lessened to a drag engine builder and he talked them into his springs, it cost them a whole engine. Do your research, and ask questions, not all springs are created equal.

Frank, I just figured out what you're doing and it's very cunning.  If you hang around long enough and start enough arguments with engine builders, you'll figure out which parts to use on your SBF build.  That's a good way to look knowledgeable and save face!  Kudos to you!  So far, we've helped you with pushrod diameter, valve spring pressure requirements, and that Erector Set main girdle that you built.  You're well on your way now!

Frank:  "You need to save weight on pushrods." 
Engine builders:  "No, you need to use the largest diameter, most rigid, pushrod that you can fit."

Argument ensues.  *Frank furiously taking notes, "Small pushrod bad.  Big pushrod good."*

Frank:  "Seat pressure isn't critical."
Engine builders:  "Seat pressure is arguably more critical than open."

Argument ensues.  *Frank writing:  "Ok, seat pressure IS important."

I get it now!  You're such a sly one, Frank. 

Since you apparently only have access to a 1969 TRW parts book, just let me know if you need any help picking valve springs and components for your build.  I have access to a lot of stuff and a lot of technology has changed since you built that 427 50 years ago. 

« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 06:57:50 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

plovett

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2020, 07:20:57 AM »
Seems to be some consensus that the distance to coil bind height might be the number one priority, at least on a solid roller.

Also seems to be some consensus that the other factors are important, too.   Can't optimize one measure without any consideration to the others. 

pl

Not my position, in fact just look at Manley vs PAC both have entirely different bind distance recommendations. No benefit or wisdom by putting one variable ahead of another.

"Can't optimize one measure without any consideration to the others." 


blykins

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2020, 07:28:00 AM »
Paulie,

Here's some data for you.

This is a 556ci BBF pulling engine.  Makes over 1200 hp at 8500-9000 peak.  Valve springs are PAC, 1.525" OD, seat pressures and coil bind dimensions were individually measured per valve spring, as they can vary. 



If you can look through my chicken scratch, you will see that they're all at 400 lbs seat.  Most spring pressure testers won't measure accurately past 1000 lbs (my Intercomp won't), so I carefully measure seat pressure and calculate the open pressure based on seat pressure, valve lift, and the spring constant.   You'll also see that the spring coil bind dimensions vary by quite a bit, so upon assembly, they are mixed and matched per the install height dimension.



Geometry is set to minimize valve lift loss.  This is a .050" pattern with almost an inch of lift.



As you can see, there's about .020-.025" difference between intake/exhaust install heights and I used the same spring on both.  The intake valve gets a little taller install height.  This is with a 2.450" intake valve, albeit an 11/32" Victory titanium valve. 

This engine uses one of my custom solid rollers, with .975"/.950" gross lift.  Coil bind clearance varies from .050"-.090" depending on whether it's an intake valve or exhaust valve.  I was given a blessing by my PAC rep.  (And before Frank says I "stole" his advice, these pictures are 2 years old.)

It runs from 8500-9000 rpm and has been freshened up twice.  Upon freshen ups, I always recheck the valve spring pressures and I've only seen 18 lbs loss of seat pressure at the most so far. 

Spring technology has really advanced in the past 10 years.  It used to be that guys would run 1.625-1.650" diameter triple springs in these applications.  These are pretty small dual springs but are well up to the challenge.  Not cheap though.

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

plovett

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Re: shimming valvesprings for equal pressure?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2020, 07:36:09 AM »
Thanks everybody!  Lots of good information.  Seems to be several schools of thought to get to basically the same place, which I think is valve control without superfluous spring pressure.

It'll definitely help me set up my springs.  I don't always buy everything from the same manufacturer.  No magic in that, in my opinion.  I have a Comp cam, Crane springs and retainers, Crower lifters, and Manton pushrods on my current setup, for instance.

I have had problems with spring harmonics in the past.  Aggressive cam lobes with not enough spring pressure and too light and wiggly pushrods.  I ended breaking valve springs.   I found a good tech at Crane and he helped me figure it out.  I actually ended up with a combination with a lot of distance from coil bind (.205" I think?), but it is working for me.  This is a flat tappet, though.   

So lots of variables to consider and impossible to put into a short response and still cover everything. 

Keep it coming!   I'd love to see your post, Bill.

pl

« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 04:08:42 PM by plovett »