Author Topic: Supercharging  (Read 30684 times)

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65er

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Supercharging
« on: February 01, 2013, 10:42:52 AM »
Tell me a bit about supercharging please guys.  I've been searching for some info but haven't really found answers to my questions.

The idea I have is to get a use Eaton M112 supercharger off Ebay such as this one for example... http://www.ebay.com/itm/03-04-Mustang-Cobra-Eaton-M112-supercharger-4-6-dohc-Mach1-99-01-Cobra-4V-GT-/271147023917?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f219f3e2d&vxp=mtr
and build an intake manifold to install the think on an FE engine.  Particularly a 435" FE with 4.035" bore and 4.25 stoke, based on my original 352 block. I think, especially with a supercharger, that I would like to keep the cylinder walls as thick as possible and just hone them out from the current 4.030" to accept new pistons.  I realize that this would be a major project involving the fuel and ignition systems as well as the straight up mechanicals, but I'm wanting to learn about the basic mechanical aspects.  Over on the 332-428 FE forum Joe D Craine mentioned a formula for horsepower increase of ((PSI/14.92)+1)*NA Horsepower.  If that holds true and I were to build a mild 400 HP 430" engine with a blower set up for only 4 PSI of boost, I should net just over the magic 500 HP number.

Questions:
Do the figures sound accurate?
Would the volume of that particular blower be too small, requiring a ridiculously high blower RPM to even boost 435 CI?
Would it be ok at 4 PSI without an intercooler?
Would the heads be less sensitive to porting work because of the boost?
Would the low RPM torque curve be much fatter than a normally aspirated 435" 500 HP engine and at about what RPM should the torque start coming on strong?
 
-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

RLander

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 10:59:49 AM »
If the blower is to small for a 4.6 (thus why the customer and all the other mustang guys upgrade to a Kenne bell) then I doubt it will be up to the task of a 7.1 The cost of the cheap blower would be offset by the cost of adapting some sort of EFI system to make it work. If your looking for boost look at a 8-71 from BDS, TBS, Hampton to name a few. If you want to keep it under the hood look at doing a blow through setup like Jay had on the Mach1.

1964 Galaxie "Super Frod"
390, 4spd

machoneman

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 11:26:03 AM »
Get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Do-It-Yourself-Guide-To-Street-Supercharging/dp/0931472172

JDC's formula is correct and it, in various forms, is used by Hampton, Bowers (out of business now methinks) BDS, Kinsler, Paxton, and other F.I./blower suppliers. Wouldn't hurt to hit their websites either as much info can be gleaned from them.

That blower is way too small for a 400+ cid engine.

Many run up to 7-9 lbs. of boost w/o any intercooler. Still, that also to some extent depends on how it's done...boost level, fuel quality, belt-driven centrifucal, GMC 6-71, draw-thru carb, pressurized carb (old Paxton set-up) or a modern EFI system. 

Heads are less sensitive to porting work because of the boost but hey, why add a blower and not try to maximize total flow?

The low RPM torque curve would be much better than a normally aspirated 435" 500 HP engine in most cases, more so with say a 6-71 top-mounted blower or a small impeller-sized belt driven centrifucal blower (Novi/Paxton, et al). 

RPM is hard to judge (cam, boost level, intake and exhaust efficiency) as many variables affect when the torque starts coming on strong).
 
I'll shut up here as it's been years sine I've done blower motors and most were 8-71 or 10-71 GMC alky Donovan or K-B Hemi's in TAD or TAFC.....which has hardly any bearing on your questions today!

« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 07:16:28 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

65er

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 11:33:38 AM »
Ok I'll stop looking at those cheap little blowers.

Think a 6-71 or 8-71 unit with a couple carbs on top would fit under a fiberglass teardrop hood? 
-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

fe66comet

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 12:40:00 PM »
I would give Gary Dyer a call from Dyes blowers. He forgot more than I will ever know about supercharging. He has complete kits for anything you want to mount to an FE ford that has enough volume to work. As far as boost a bone stock engine with 7-9 to compression works well with 7 to 10   pounds of boost.

jayb

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 01:09:53 PM »
T
Questions:
Do the figures sound accurate?
Would the volume of that particular blower be too small, requiring a ridiculously high blower RPM to even boost 435 CI?
Would it be ok at 4 PSI without an intercooler?
Would the heads be less sensitive to porting work because of the boost?
Would the low RPM torque curve be much fatter than a normally aspirated 435" 500 HP engine and at about what RPM should the torque start coming on strong?

Joe's answer on power is roughly correct, although the blower takes power to run too, and that will subtract from the gains.  On my 489" supercharged engine, at 17 psi of boost the blower took over 100 HP to run.

I think that blower is too small to work on your setup.  You have to start thinking of horsepower in terms of air volume per unit of time.  The more air in terms of cfm that you can put through the engine, the more horsepower you will make, blower or not.  The blower in the ebay ad may not provide the airflow to even get you back to your existing, unblown horsepower level.  In that case it will make zero boost and potentially cost horsepower.  If you could find some data on the blower you could figure that out for sure.

I don't think that an intercooler is ever really required, it will just add horsepower if you use one.  The more boost you run the more the intake charge is heated, and this leads to less combustion efficiency.  Having said that, running higher boost levels (and heat levels in the intake charge) can lead to detonation if you are not careful, so limiting the boost to 7 psi will minimize this problem.  You can also look into a Boost Cooler setup, which sprays a methanol/water mix into the intake tract before the fuel, to cool down the intake charge.

Anything you do in terms of porting, big valves, big cam, etc. will give you a directly proportional benefit with supercharging.  You can look at this one of two ways; build your engine with standard ports and valves and a small cam, and use the boost to increase your horsepower by some percentage, and you have subtracted the cost of the normal performance tricks from the build.  Or, you can build your engine with ported heads, big valves, and a big cam, and use the blower to increase that power by the same percentage.  In other words, if you build a 400 HP engine and add 8 psi of boost, you will have a 600 HP engine.  If you build a 500 HP engine and add 8 psi of boost, you will have a 750 horsepower engine.

Boost will always fatten the torque curve, but using a supercharger it will not come on immediately; it will be engine speed dependent.  So, at 1500 RPM you may not get a big boost in torque over a naturally aspirated engine.  At 4000 RPM you certainly will.

For what it's worth, I was very happy with the Vortech centrifugal blower that was installed on my Mach 1, and I was able to get over 1000 HP out of the 489" engine, running 17 psi of boost.  It would be pretty easy, to get 700 out of a 390 stroker engine using the same setup and a reduced boost number.  You will be spending a pretty fair chunk of change setting up your engine with a blower, so why not go for a little more power?  Once you've got the blower adding boost is just changing pulley ratios.  And if there is too much power, you can always throttle back  ;D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:38:08 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

fe66comet

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 01:31:18 PM »
If you went roots a 6-71 would be very happy with 350 to 450 cubes. Thing about a roots is they are limited to 6500 RPM a centrifugal will go higher but all superchargers loose efficiency at higher than rated RPM. They will become a restriction and overheat the the charge and engine so if you plan on spinning big RPM go with a turbo like Ray Jay or something comparable with pressure lube and a waist gate.

machoneman

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2013, 01:37:18 PM »
No, it won't but it'll look cool!

I forgot Gary Dyer (we used to race him long ago!) and he's got great stuff too as noted. You should spend a lot of time learning about all the variants of supercharging one can literally bolt-on today in kit form. As Jay noted below, he made tons of hp but.....one really can't run 15 psi of boost on a regular daily-driver basis and expect a base 390 engine to live long.

What's neat is one can easily (in most cases) change pulleys for the track but keep a lesser pulley on the motor for 90% of your driving. And, a well set-up blower motor will defintely scare the hell out of you at times! 


Ok I'll stop looking at those cheap little blowers.

Think a 6-71 or 8-71 unit with a couple carbs on top would fit under a fiberglass teardrop hood?
Bob Maag

fe66comet

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2013, 01:41:02 PM »
The 6-71 is rather low profile it fits under the hood of a camaro with no scoop.

machoneman

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2013, 02:00:07 PM »
Yes, the blower itself may well fit under a teardrop hood but, with carbs and some kinda' aircleaner setup, methinks it will be iffy.

BDS has a nice panel of 'advice' btw:

http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/recommend.php

I would disgaree with the steel crank rec as a well-prepped cast unit would work fine...at least will lower boost levels (like under 10 psi or so).
Bob Maag

fe66comet

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2013, 02:47:41 PM »
You could even go hyperutectic pistons to save cash at 7 psi. Anything above that is just extra insurance.

Heo

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2013, 03:29:17 PM »
If im right informed so a eaton 112  have a displacement (spellin might be wrong)
of 112 cuin per revolution and if so you have to spin it pretty fast to feed a 435 with
boost. A roots 6-71 8-71 looks impressiv  but take much power to drive pretty in-
effectiv i think Paxton /Vortex is the best allternativ or if there is bigger eatons
My son is building a Volvo 16 valve B230,2,3 liter about130 cuin with a eaton 112
 that will be interesting to see the result of that
150 stock hp, with 1 bar bost 300 hp teoretical but i dont think
he is going that  high in boost



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65er

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2013, 03:46:31 PM »
Dayum!  I don't think I've ever had such helpful responses from a forum before.  I guess I finally asked just the right questions of just the right people, lol.  This sounds to me like this might actually be worth digging deeper.  I think I'll go ahead and order the supercharging book and also check out the BDS link as well as Dyer's and any others I can find.   I'm not too interested in the centrifugal style even though they do work.  I just can't get past the looks of the darn thing and a big part of the appeal of a supercharger is the look.  6-71 or 8-71 would be even that much better than that little Eaton unit too.  I'll have to check into my options on carburation/EFI and hood clearance.   

I actually have a set of rods and a brand new set of hypers and rings under the bed for std bore 390 and a good 390 crank in the closet.  Not saying I'd want to do all that with hypers, but shoot, I could put a fresh 390 shortblock together for next to nothing and spend the whole budget on blower parts, lol.  With about 9:1 SCR and 6 PSI of boost wouldn't it be pushing close to 500 HP?  I think that really would satisfy me. According to Werby's Gonkulator I've got around 375 horse right now and I'm really pretty happy with that.  Say 85 percent satisfied at the moment, lol. An extra 125 hp ought to really take care of my wants here.   But what Jay says makes a ton of sense too.  If going for a 50% increase, why not start with more? Porting, valves, cam are still all part of the equation, I guess even more so if you consider a 50 hp valve job could be worth 75 hp under boost...
-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

fe66comet

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2013, 03:59:59 PM »
Really the only point as far as port work you would see gains is on the exhaust side, intake wise you won't see much. You just want to open up your most restrictive spot so there is less bottleneck.

jayb

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Re: Supercharging
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2013, 04:40:51 PM »
Really the only point as far as port work you would see gains is on the exhaust side, intake wise you won't see much. You just want to open up your most restrictive spot so there is less bottleneck.

Not true, John, improvements in the intake port will be directly reflected in improvements in supercharging, provided the blower can keep up with the airflow requirements of the better ports.  Trust me on this, I've done the tests  ;)
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC