445 Fe Stroker camshaft recommendations.

[v8Dave]

Hello Everyone.
This is my first post and would just like to say its a pleasure to be here and hope to learn from the many experienced fe members on the forum. I have been doing abit of research for a while now however feel like i need expert advice from people that have more experience then myself with fe engines.
I am currently building a 445 fe stroker engine for in a 67 shelby mustang.(original 428 to be shelved and saved)
The set so far is as follows, 390 fe bored plus 0.030  forged scat crankshaft 4.250 stroker, callies big block chevy rods with arp bolts,mahle forged flat top pistons,427 romac harmonic balancer(all
(rotating assembly will be balanced),427 fe edelbrock 76cc heads(bare currently/ valve sizes intake 2.090 and exhaust 1.650) and the 67 shelby c7zx-9425-a medium riser dual carb intake manifold. From my calculations with this set up and heads the compression ration will be 10.8.1 slighty higher than stock 10.5.1
As regards fuel i should be ok as i have access to 95-98 octane fuel so i believe i should be ok with that compression level.
As reagrds time chain i was going to go with the ford racing fe double roller timing set, high pressure oil pump(not high volumn) 7 qrt oil pan and windage tray. As reagrds rockers i was going to stick with new stock rockers with the end support stands and spacer bushings and heavy duty shafts.
The one area where i could do with some guidence is camshaft selection. I would like to stick with hydraulic flat tappet. I know alot of people have had bad luck however with lucas oil and brad penn oil over all the years i have never had a problem(fingers crossed when i say this) with running a camshaft in and wiping out any camshaft lobes.(on none fe engines that have been built)
The transmission in the car is a c6 ford automatic with 3.25.1 rear gears and the gears maybe changed to 3.00.1 Wheels on car are 15x7.
I am looking for a camshaft that will pull strong from idle to 5500rpm as this engine will never go past 5800rpm. With it being a automatic and having factory power disc brakes i would like the engine to make plenty of vaccum for the brakes and not be to wild.(800-900rpm idle in gear nothing to wild)
I figure with this set up it would be nice to see 450hp and 500ftlbs of torque if possible when dynoed.(should give the 67 shelby a bit more of a kick from the factory 355hp/420ftlbs)
I have been looking for months at different camshafts and reviews and videos and online disscusions however it becomes very complicated, and over welming very fast. So i figure its best to ask and learn from more experienced people.
I have been looking at two lunati voodoo camshafts one is #10330701 the other is #10330702.
So i guess the question is with the information i have stated above what would be your adivce on a good hydraulic flat tappet camshaft to pick for this set up that will provide plenty of vaccum for the power brakes and c6 transmission and hopefully met my horsepower targets. I have left my edelbrock heads bare so i could naturally get the valve springs to match my camshaft i choose and then get a torque converter to suit my engine set up so it all works as one.
I appreciate anyone that can help me, guide me or even give me some advice on this subject as i have been search the past few months and i always try to do my own homework before bothering others however in this case i could really use some advice.
Thank you all for your time and help.
Have a nice day
Dave
p.s Pleasure to have joined the forum.

[blykins]

Are the heads ported?

Not a Voodoo cam fan, they are pretty noisy. 

[v8Dave]

Hello Brent. Thank you for your time and reply. No the cylinder heads are not ported just as cast 76cc 427 medium riser heads(to match the c7zx 427 shelby medium riser intake manifold).
I purchased the heads bare as i wanted to purchase either manley or ferrea stainless valves and of course the valve springs to match the camshaft chosen. Also i worked out with the 76cc heads it would get my compression ratio down to 10.8.1 with the 76cc heads were i believe the 72cc or 68cc 428 cobra jet heads natural put my compression ration to high.
I am not fixed on lunati camshafts its just what ive been looking at. I am open to any advice or guidence that will help me meet the requirements i listed.
Thank you for your time Brent and any adive you can offer. Much appreciated.
Have a nice day.
Dave

[CaptCobrajet]

You need the cam that is in the dyno section under BP truck application.  It peaks power in a little bigger engine right near your desires.  You really should go to a hydraulic roller.  There is zero downside and only positives for what you describe.

[blykins]

I have my custom flat tappets ground with extra lobe taper and then pair them up with Crower Coolface/Camsaver lifters.  It's a viable combination if you're set on a flat tappet.

For a stock Edelbrock head, with 3/8" valve stem diameters, you will definitely not want a more aggressive lobe.  You need something a little easier in terms of lobe aggression.  You'll also need something that will allow you to run pump gas in a car, with a tall gear, and 10.8:1.  That's a pretty tall order.  In fact, unless your 98 octane is a true 98 octane, I don't think we will be able to get there from here without running straight up or retarded cam timing, which would be a band-aid. 

I assume you're not in the States and in a lot of countries, the 98 octane is the same as our 93 octane. 

[v8Dave]

Hello Brent
You are correct i am in the uk. Standard fuel here is 95 octane and super unleaded is 98 octane which is 98-102 ron depending which fuel garage you go to (bp, shell,ect)
So i believe i should be ok with the 10.8.1 compression or maybe im wrong? Is that the same as your 93 octane in the usa?
I am open to any advice or information on what you would recommend to achieve my goals. Obviously because i have made the engine bigger 390-445 fe the stock camshaft in the gt390/gt500 was the gt390 camshaft i believe so i am looking to go up a step or two and am hoping to still retain some form of stock drivability as regards power disc brakes and idle when warm.
Because the engine is now bigger ci wise what would you recommend camshaft wise to help with the increase in cid. I wanted to stick with hydraulic flat tappet as i have heard many horror storys regarding roller lifters failing. Do you think 10.8.1 is to high?
Again i can not thank you all enough for your time and advice.
Thanks also Captcobrajet for the information i will take a look.
Many thanks
Have a nice day
Dave

[blykins]

Hello Brent
You are correct i am in the uk. Standard fuel here is 95 octane and super unleaded is 98 octane which is 98-102 ron depending which fuel garage you go to (bp, shell,ect)
So i believe i should be ok with the 10.8.1 compression or maybe im wrong? Is that the same as your 93 octane in the usa?
I am open to any advice or information on what you would recommend to achieve my goals. Obviously because i have made the engine bigger 390-445 fe the stock camshaft in the gt390/gt500 was the gt390 camshaft i believe so i am looking to go up a step or two and am hoping to still retain some form of stock drivability as regards power disc brakes and idle when warm.
Because the engine is now bigger ci wise what would you recommend camshaft wise to help with the increase in cid. I wanted to stick with hydraulic flat tappet as i have heard many horror storys regarding roller lifters failing. Do you think 10.8.1 is to high?
Again i can not thank you all enough for your time and advice.
Thanks also Captcobrajet for the information i will take a look.
Many thanks
Have a nice day
Dave

Your 98 octane would be 91-92 octane here and the cam would need a significant band-aid to run on that pump gas. 

I would take the compression ratio down.  You're not really gaining much hp by going from something like 10 to 10.8 and it only aggravates your chances of running on pump fuel.

It's not a problem whatsoever to hit your other parameters with the correct camshaft.

As for roller lifters failing, in all my years, I've never heard of a needle bearing failing in a hydraulic roller lifter.  Occasionally you will get a bad lifter that won't pump up, but you will also get that with a hydraulic flat tappet.   Generally, the roller lifters that eventually fail are solid rollers, but they do so because they are subject to valve lash, which means they spend their lives bouncing off the cam lobes. 

Hydraulic roller setups are more expensive, that's the only con.  If you're building a new engine that will need valve springs, pushrods, etc., then you're looking at around a $525 upcharge over flat tappet components, plus a distributor gear if you already have a distributor.  Otherwise, the pros are that you can hit the key on a fresh engine without camshaft break-in concerns and you will probably get a horsepower bump over the flat tappet cam.

I can give a recommendation, but I think you're going to have to address the compression ratio.  If your goals were a higher rpm engine, it would make it easier, but a 5500 rpm engine with a 3.00 gear complicates things as the cam needs to have grunt down low, which necessitates lower duration numbers.

[v8Dave]

Hello Brent.
What would you recommend as regards to lowering the compression ratio the. Thicker head gaskets, machine the tops of the pistons down, new pistons?
I believe the ones i purchased are mahle forged flat top with the coat skirts and file to fit performance ring set.
If you could recommend a few camshafts that would be great if you wish to post of pm me. As regards axle ratio the factory is 3.25.1 but i believe it maybe changed to even lower 3.00.1 so that was why i listed both specs.
Again thank you for your time, its much appreciated.
Many thanks.
Dave

[blykins]

How far are the pistons in the hole at TDC and what gasket thickness are you using in your calculation?  A thicker gasket can work, but you can't get carried away with it.  If you're figuring with a .040" gasket, a .050" can help, but I personally wouldn't go thicker than that as it can cause other issues.

[Yellow Truck]

Dave, the fact you found yourself here suggests that you know this is the place where you get the best advice. One other thing I would add is DON'T do it over PM. I expect Brent will do this in the forum anyway, but the whole point of this forum is the guys that know and love FEs share what they know and we all learn.

There have been a few trolls around, but in general this is a forum where the people with knowledge are astonishingly generous with it, and they are respectful of each other as well.

Do please provide your info into the forum and let Brent and others answer.

[My427stang]

As Brent mentioned, best to measure everything at this point and be sure you are where you think you are.  It's not easy getting to 10.8:1 with a 76 cc chamber and off the shelf pistons, I assume you are running flat tops and cut the deck to get there, if anything else, you might be lower depending on deck height and brand of piston.  The 76 cc heads are usually close, but deck height, head gasket and piston choice are variables that make a big difference

Your Voodoo choices are way too small, although they may match the 3.00 ratio, they won't meet your rpm range and need a 9.25-9.5:1 static compression ratio in a 445.

That being said, your compression ratio is fighting the rpm range/gear choice.  If things measure close to where you think you are are, I'd likely split the middle with a pair of Magnum flat lobes on a custom cam (assuming you stayed flat) Comp has a Magnum 286/236 lobe, combined with a 292/244 exhaust would run real strong, and I'd likely spread the centers to 112 to clean up cruise with your gear and index it on 108.  FWIW, I ran a similar solid in my 4x4 445 truck engine and although it had a little more head, it had no shortage of low end power

There are a bunch of ways to skin a cat, and the Magnum lobes aren't state of the art, but they are easy to control and allows you to run a little less .050 duration for a given advertised, which you likely need to do.  A 1/2 point less compression would be your friend though, as I'd likely crank that cam forward to 105 or so.

I would try hard to refrain from 3.00 gears, especially if they are 3.25 now, you are just drifting farther apart, the good thing is that the C-6 will help you a bit, as a converter will give you a little extra torque multiplication on the street.

Last comment though, although both of mine are flat tappets, I am not sure it's worth the savings anymore.  Set and forget with a hyd roller, better lobe choices, not even a care in the world during break in.  A nice car and the extra 500 or so really only stings once. FWIW, I haven't built a flat tappet for anyone else for a few years

Sounds like a great car, and should be lots of fun.   I did a similar 460 build in 2004/2005, 3.25 gear, 468 cid in a big bodied Mach 1 and even though it had 20 cubes on you, with the bigger ports of the 460-based intake and heads, it was still a dream to drive, even in Las Vegas and LA traffic. 

[CaptCobrajet]

I believe that you need to stay around 220 @ .050 or a little less if you want it to feel "ready" on the street at low rpms, given that you want to use 3.00 or 3.25 gears.  I think one of the worst things you can do is put too much duration in it with the thought of cranking a bunch of advance in the cam to crutch the bottom end.  You'll get varying opinions.  I would take advantage of the inches and the long stroke and build a torque engine for what you describe.  9.75 static cr would be my thought.  Mahle makes that same piston in a dish.  I'll bet you could sell your flat tops easily in the UK and go dish.......then you could run very tight quench to lesson chances of pre-ignition, and get more efficient combustion.  The dish piston will make more power than a flat top, all other things a constant.  I reckon you will just have to pick a horse and then ride it....... 

[Barry_R]

Probably want to take a quick recheck on the compression - might not be as high as you think.  I come up a bit lower with a 76 cc head on a flat top piston, assuming around 6cc for valve pockets and around .250" above the top ring groove.  I get that 10.8ish number with the smaller 72 cc heads, although the deck clearance is an unknown variable.

That said I would not be as concerned as I would if the engine were in a big Galaxie or a 4wd truck - we can get a little braver in the smaller car, but like the others said - stay with at least the 3.25 gear.  Your post reads as though the gear change may have already happened at some time in the car's history.

The things we would normally do to mitigate the effect of the higher compression (more duration, more overlap) work against the desire for smoother idle and higher vacuum for the power brakes.  The cam Blair referenced might work nicely.  Just understand that you are working a balance between the characteristics.  There are post-build tuning opportunities that can help dial the package in as well.

I tend to agree with Ross on those old school Comp cams.  They may give up a little power compared to new stuff.  But they always seem to break in well, they are quiet and easy on valvetrain parts.  Hard not to like those characteristics in a daily driver sort of build.  The designer on quite a few of those was a fellow named Harold Brookshire, who later on founded Ultradyne cams and made a darn big mark in the professional oval track world - his stuff aint that bad at all even now. 

I am not as enamored with the EDM hole in the base of lifters as other folks.  It won't hurt, but I don't see it helping that much.  That technology came out of a NASCAR environment where they ran steel cams in an enclosed cam tunnel, and tool steel lifters in a vacuum with virtually no oil.  On any normal engine there is a virtual rain storm of spray oil coming off of the crank below, along with oil from a +/- .0015 clearance on the diameter of the lifter.  The additional taper is an idea with merit, which could compensate for somewhat worn lifter bores and lifter bore geometry issues.

That noted, I would also agree that if economically possible a move to a hydraulic roller would be a big positive.

[blykins]

The dished Mahle piston that Blair brought up would be the easiest route to take, IF you have a good handle on your measurements.  However, I would most likely wait until I have valves in hand, valve job done, and then pour a chamber to see where you are.  Even different valves can affect the compression ratio. 

All of this stuff works together and it's best to have the bottom/top end nailed down before you choose a camshaft.   Mid 220's on the intake .050" duration would be where I would head if I had my "druthers" but all of the other characteristics make or break the combination....advertised duration, .200" duration, lift, LSA, and ICL.  Just keep in mind that a lot of shelf cams are "universal" cams.  The same grind is made for each engine family.   The only bad thing is, every engine family doesn't behave like all the others. 

I'd get the compression ratio nailed down and then circle back for a cam recommendation. 

[Falcon67]

Echo all above -
1 - run a race (351C but still) engine with a Howards hydro roller.  Three years going on, zero problems.  Every OEM lifter in every engine for the last many years here the states is a hydro roller tappet.  I'd also have no fear of a mechanical roller with pressure oiling.  your intended use down't require that of course.  The internet is repleat with "old news" that gets passed on as current fact. 

2 - octane:  Same engine, 357 CID, accurate 10.5: with iron heads will not run strictly on US 91 octane fuel without "peppering" the spark plugs.  The hydro roller is fairly aggressive, much more so that you'd find in a street engine.  To save a little $ and the pistons, I run 50/50 91 pump + VP 110 leaded race fuel.  93 is generally not found here in west Texas but I would not trust it either.  Mostly it's just spiked with toluene to boost the octane number, which turns to soot in the exhaust.  I run 91 in the back up 302 engine with 9.5:1 CR, but if I go under the car and remove the exhaust I come out looking like a chimney sweep.   Hate that junk.  if I'm using the car to race for more than just a Test-n-tune night, I run straight 110 in it because it's a clean fuel.  At $9.50/US gallon. 

3 - CR - do not rely on factory specs and "nominal" published figures to determine CR on an engine build.  Measure everything, then figure.  Again with the Cleveland, Ford would tell you a 1970 closed chamber 351C would have "11:1" compression.  To get 10.5:1 required shaving the stock heads down to 65cc chambers, running flat top pistons with only 3cc valve reliefs and zero decking the block.  Out of the box real world figures come in well below the marketing "11:1". 

4 - I've bought two rollers and misc parts from Brent, all have worked just as promised.  You can't go wrong following his and the other pro's here advice.  Good luck with your build!