Author Topic: Tale of two cams......  (Read 5609 times)

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blykins

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2020, 11:11:21 AM »
Joe, I don't think you were on the wrong train of thought, there are certainly combinations where you can have too big of a camshaft. 

Here's what I've been struggling with and what I've been trying to justify in my head:  I'm not really of the mind that the #2 cam was low-powered because it's on a 110, I think it's an accumulation of not enough intake duration (maybe a small increment made a big difference on this engine), too much exhaust duration (extra exhaust duration can make a blow-down event too early, giving away hp), maybe wasn't in a sweet spot for lift. 

Obviously a specific overlap number isn't anything that you should shoot for when building an engine, but IMO, it's something that should be "checked" as part of the process.  In this case two different camshafts have the same overlap but are almost 30 hp away from each other.
Brent Lykins
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Joe-JDC

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 01:28:43 PM »
I am still learning at 74.  I have had more camshaft myths debunked in the last 5 years than all my adult life.  Working with lobe separation numbers when the EFI first came on the scene with the '86 HO and aftermarket camshafts, I found that many engines respond to high numbers such as 112, 113, 114,  all the way to 117 or more.  My work with Y Blocks the last 10 years found that most of them would increase horsepower up to 113, but lost at 114.  Still learning.  Joe-JDC
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jayb

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 01:45:32 PM »
I remember when you first did this test, getting that test cam from the company of a former forum member ( ;D).  I think the reason that your cam performed better is mostly due to the added intake duration.  That 351C 4V port has a huge volume; it is a big, lazy port.  More intake duration will mean more time for port velocity to develop before the piston starts coming back up on the compression stroke, and that port velocity will allow better cylinder filling as the intake valve is closing.  A smaller, more efficient port won't need that much time to develop velocity, but the big, lazy 351C port does.  I'll bet if you added another 5 degrees intake duration to your cam, you'd pick up even more power. 

The only thing that doesn't really fit this theory is the Strip Dominator intake, which IIRC does not have the factory 351C 4V port size.  So flow velocity through that intake should be good, and should crutch the huge size of the 351C 4V port.  I think it's smaller, like a 351C 4V Edelbrock Torker or Weiand tunnel ram.  But, maybe that's not as much of an effect as I thought, unless the Strip Dominator was port matched to the heads.

In any case, I think it would be a mistake to use this particular set of data to draw conclusions about the cam needed for the Trick Flow port, which by all accounts is a much more efficient design than the factory 351C 4V port.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 01:59:20 PM »
Jay, the Strip Dominator is a 4V port size.  I wasn't planning on really applying the same rules of the Cleveland cam to the TFS FE stuff, but I'm mainly interested in the effects of overlap staying constant while other parameters change.   I will be testing that and I have the opportunity to do so with an upcoming build.  I usually just watch overlap so that it doesn't cause vacuum to go away (for guys with vacuum brakes), but I have also ground cams for guys where they picked up a noticeable amount of ET with the same cam specs as before, but with less overlap.  I'm basically thinking out loud with no real direction of thought process.....just slinging information out LOL

Joe, I have a hunch that you were pulling overlap out with the longer LSA's.  Just a thought.  I too have seen big numbers from some long LSA's.....I recently built a 460ci SBF that used a 115° LSA and it did really well.   Some of my pulling truck engines use 119-120° LSA, but the advertised duration is WAY up there as well (like 315/330°), with large overlap values. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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FElony

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 02:01:27 PM »
I just picked up a cherry Cleve Torker I. And a few months ago an equally cherry Streetmaster 400. OK manifolds? I have no experience with 335's.

jayb

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 02:05:19 PM »
The Torker is a great manifold, if my testing is any indication.  It made over 700 HP on my last dyno mule, on one of my intake adapters.  I also run one on my regular street car, which is a 440 HP 428CJ, and despite being a single plane manifold I don't notice any lack of low end torque.

I have zero experience with the Streetmaster 400.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

FElony

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2020, 02:31:28 PM »
Thanks, Jay. By "Torker I" in this case I mean the cloverleaf version, which I think came before the square pad version. Both carry the 2760 part number. Not sure if much difference between the two?

chilly460

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2020, 03:55:09 PM »
Ah, think I figured out who the cam guy was, that big exhaust split is his MO.  May work for all the BBC he builds as they are on the other end of the spectrum as far as the exhaust port to intake port ratios
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 10:01:48 AM by chilly460 »

WConley

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2020, 09:44:39 AM »
You guys are forgetting that Cam #2 had more attitude than Cam #1  ;D
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gt350hr

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2020, 03:08:28 PM »
  The strip dominator is an easy 20 better than the torker by my "in the day" back to back track testing. The as cast ports are smaller (slightly) than the head and port matching is a BAD thing to do. I did do one with a plenum volume increase that pushed up the peak power by 1,000 rpm and gave about 10hp more at 7,500.
   Randy

jayb

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2020, 03:22:20 PM »
Not according to my testing, Randy.  See the thread below, page 11 of the thread has a table with the data about half way down the page.  With a 1000 HP Holley carb on the dyno mule, the Torker and the Strip Dominator were essentially identical, and in fact the Torker looked a little better.  With an 1150 Dominator carb on a Super Sucker, the Strip Dominator was about 9 peak HP better than the Torker, and up about 5 lb-ft or HP on average.  I think the Torker intake is a lot better than people give it credit for...

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4760.0
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Falcon67

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2020, 03:39:53 PM »
You guys are forgetting that Cam #2 had more attitude than Cam #1  ;D

Thumper!  Sound is worth a perceived 100 HP. 

shady

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2020, 09:05:36 AM »
Yes, presentation is every thing. Performance, second.
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pbf777

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2020, 12:19:09 PM »
      I'm going to have to agree with Randy on the general experience that the Holley 351c 4V "Strip Dominator" is in the proper application going to out-run the Edelbrock #2760 "Torker"; but I do like the Torker any time I might feel the Strip Dominator is perhaps a bit too aggressive, and each have proven to be excellent when applied properly.         ;)

      Scott.

gt350hr

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2020, 10:42:50 AM »
      Jay ,
        I see what you are saying. I was going off of actual drag strip testing in the '70s. I also tested a Ford D1ZX-FA that was machined for an 850 "regular" Holley , not the dominator and modified. The Holley strip dominator produced the lowest ETs and most MPH on both a stick and auto application. Both were mid to low 12 second ( not bad "for the day") bracket cars. IIRC the difference was .15 ET and 2 mph over the Torker. I have to admit that I only saw Torkers being used on the PSE FE adapters being used back then , or a tunnel ram.