Author Topic: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.  (Read 7014 times)

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Clark Coe

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2019, 01:54:53 PM »
Brent is correct about the stock Ford FE bell housing I am using. Checked it last night and it is approximately 6 7/16" (6.43") deep. Most all of the components in this installation are proven stock Ford parts. I did upgrade to a new steel 30 pound McLeod flywheel.



Here is the interference with the TKO splines with the pilot bushing. The transmission was not tight to the bell housing, there was a .100 gap between the two.



How much distance does a clutch disc require to float on the spline to relax and disengage?



The short (6.03") top loader input shaft was tight enough to leave a slight witness mark on the bronze pilot bushing. The pilot bushing is not proud as I first reported.





It appears that this input shaft is not the required short FE shaft that this installation requires. But I am not sure what Modern Driveline provided with my order. Do vendors re-manufacture shortened inputs by machining lengthened splines? Notice the two colors of splines in the above picture. Also, what is the purpose of the groove in the middle of pilot diameter?

Not sure what my approach will be with Modern Driveline. In a phone conversation, they seemed convinced that they had supplied the correct input shaft, but no way will this work without machine work, and that is not what I paid for.

 

« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 09:48:58 PM by Clark Coe »

blykins

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2019, 02:54:52 PM »
Tremec typically supplies short input shaft kits.  There's a part number for it that includes the input shaft and the bearing retainer. 

Once upon a time, they were backordered indefinitely, so guys were making their own out of standard length inputs or GM inputs.  It's possible that this one was a custom and something was amiss on it. 

I gave dimensions up above for the input shaft lengths.  Maybe you could compare.
Brent Lykins
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Gregwill16

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2019, 04:50:20 PM »
TCKT5729 is the short input kit for a tko600 and TCKT5727 for the tko500. He mentioned the splines hitting the pilot so shortening the end isn't going to help. With the pictures you have taken I would send to them and be asking them to send me the kit at a minimum. If not, I would be asking to return the whole thing for a refund and buy elsewhere.

C6AE

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2019, 08:27:25 PM »
I would be wondering about my crankshaft thrust bearing on this one...


Clark Coe

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2019, 10:07:40 PM »
I would be wondering about my crankshaft thrust bearing on this one...


All is good with the thrust bearing. That groove is not as deep as it looks in the photo, barely can catch your fingernail on it. I had the oil pan off during this transmission deal to freshen up the pan gasket that was seeping. Thrust bearing clearance was within specification.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2019, 06:50:56 AM »
So the splines are too long, not the pilot.  That will require either a new input or removal of input and cut the splines back.  I guess that is why they offer that spacer, but that is not what I call "the right" fix.  The splines need shortened.

You have plenty of spline for the disc to float.  It only moves 1/16" or so when the PP is pushed and the disc is allowed to spin.
Larry

wayne

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2019, 09:09:24 AM »
I would ask them to give you what you payed for or send it back and buy from some one who stands behind what they sell.Would this input work with a truck bell?

gregb

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2019, 10:53:01 AM »
If it was me I would just have a new pilot bushing machined down, doesn't look like it needs much since you say you can just catch you nail on it and it isn't deep. 

The Real McCoy

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2019, 01:01:31 PM »
Well I'll throw my 2 cents worth in and hopefully not muddy the water too much.  I had a very similar situation on a 63 Galaxie while installing a TKO 600. One key difference was that I was using a truck bellhousing which is slightly deeper than the original 63 FE bellhousing.  I had a kit for a Galaxie that was supplied by American Powertrain which included a pilot bearing,  not a pilot bushing.  This pilot bearing was a much smaller OD (outside diameter) than the pilot bushing in my crankshaft, obviously this smaller OD pilot bearing was not going to fit in the large hole my original pilot bushing was in.  The picture of your pilot bushing would appear to be the same OD as what was in my crankshaft.  When the TKO 600 was mounted onto the truck bellhousing it looked very similar to what your pictures show that the splines bottomed on the bushing with a substantial gap remaining between the bellhousing and transmission case.  What I did find after I removed the pilot bushing was that there was another hole in the crankshaft that I was not aware of due to the pilot bushing covering it up.  This additional hole, deeper in the crankshaft, was the correct diameter for the pilot bearing that was supplied with the transmission kit.  So, installing the pilot bearing into the smaller and deeper hole in the crankshaft resolved that problem for me.  I should also mention that while I was struggling with this issue I had an old 352 core that I was making comparisons to with an original FoMoCo crankshaft and it only had the larger diameter hold for the pilot bushing.  My crankshaft was a Scat 428 stroker crank, which had the large hole (fit the bushing) and the small hole (fit the bearing).  I do have a more extensive write up about this and some other issues on the TKO installation, I didn't want to dump the whole thing in the middle of this post.  If you are interested in reading the entire write up, PM me with an email address and I will send it to you.

I would agree with some of the other responses that it really looks like you didn't get the short shaft. 

I would be especially aware of the crankshaft end play at every step of the way as the potential for disaster is present if end play is not present.

My kit come from American Powertrain and I had some real issues working with them and the issues I had.  Interestingly Modern Drive Line actually helped me out in resolving my problems even though my kit come from a different vendor.  I think all these vendors do their best to resolve the issues but sometimes you just have to work a little harder to make it clear to them what the issue is or find the right person in the organization that can fully grasp what your up against.  I'd be hounding Modern Driveline on this as I think they are little more knowledgeable on Ford applications then some of the others plus it's their kit and they want you to be happy with it..

63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

My427stang

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2019, 01:02:49 PM »
Talk to them, I don’t think you got what you paid for. I will post what a good one looks like later.

FYI I ran into this with an old small block TKO non 500/600 with a modified chevy input. Even with a truck bell it hit. That one I even had to cut the bearing retainer because the throwout collar was too long
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

drdano

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2019, 01:25:27 PM »
I have the short shaft on my TKO600 as well and the splines were hitting the pilot bearing before the trans was all the way mated to the bell.  My 428 crank seemed like it had a shallower pilot hole than my old 390.  I machined a step in the pilot and it works great.

My427stang

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2019, 01:49:38 PM »
Here is mine, hopefully you can zoom in and get some use.  These are old pics, no ability to measure for you, but Clark you know it works from the ride down Maple Street!





and no, I don't curl that anymore, that was 14 years ago :) 

Since then, torn bicep, 2 bulging disks in neck, spinal stenosis, you name it, the mighty fall fast....but as the song says, "Not as good as I once was, but I am as good once as I ever was"  LOL
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Cyclone03

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2019, 09:44:31 PM »
I too run a SCAT crank and use the “inner” pilot bore with a 5.0 Mustang roller pilot bearing.
Lance H

Clark Coe

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2019, 10:47:54 PM »
Here is mine, hopefully you can zoom in and get some use.  These are old pics, no ability to measure for you, but Clark you know it works from the ride down Maple Street!


Ross, thanks for the comparison pictures, those will help with when I contact the transmission vendor.

Yes, you are correct about that memorable Saturday morning ride at Cars and Coffee, your Mustang hooks up and gets with the program. The story of my ride in you Mustang has been shared with many.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 05:15:13 PM by Clark Coe »

Clark Coe

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Re: TKO600 5-speed short input shaft is too long.
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2019, 05:14:14 PM »
I have the short shaft on my TKO600 as well and the splines were hitting the pilot bearing before the trans was all the way mated to the bell.  My 428 crank seemed like it had a shallower pilot hole than my old 390.  I machined a step in the pilot and it works great.

That looks like a fairly simple solution and may be in my future. My installation requires approximately another .200" of clearance to bolt everything together. I plan to hydraulically jack the pilot bushing out of the crank and find out how deep the first step is and why the pilot bushing will not drive deeper into the crank flange. Trying to make up my mind whither to use bread or grease as the hydraulic medium.

Thanks for the picture, drdano.