Author Topic: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE  (Read 101666 times)

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jayb

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CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« on: October 21, 2012, 05:36:41 PM »
A while back when I was struggling to adapt a Meziere 55 gpm electric water pump for a 385 series Ford onto my high riser engine, the topic of adapting a CVR electric pump to an FE came up.  Meziere doesn't make one of their big 55 gpm pumps for an FE, and I have called them twice asking about using one of their lower capacity pumps on a high horsepower engine, and both times they've told me that it is likely I'd have cooling problems on the street with anything less than their 55 gpm unit.  Since they don't make a 55 gpm unit for an FE, they suggested one of their remote pumps, but that didn't really fit my high riser program, so I ended up using the 55 gpm 385 series pump instead, and adapting it to my high riser.  But the CVR pump looks like a very interesting alternative to this approach, especially given the $500 price tag of the Meziere pump.  It is also claimed to be a 55 gpm pump, and it uses kind of a modular design, where you buy the center section ($243 at Summit) and then buy the adapters required to bolt the center section onto your engine.  Of course, they don't make these adapters for an FE :(  But the adapters didn't look all that difficult to machine.  One of our forum members sent me one of these pumps for measurements, so that I could try to develop a CNC program to machine the adapters.  Below are a couple of photos of the CVR pump center section:





The link below is for the adapters for this pump, used with a small block Ford engine:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CVS-8302CL/

The 55 gpm CVR pump would resolve the flow capacity issue that some of us face with the standard FE Meziere pumps.  But when I was thinking about this, another issue came up, and that involves the attachment of accessories on the engine.  None of the electric water pumps I've seen address this; there just aren't any mounting holes or bosses available on the aftermarket electric pumps for the factory brackets.  Here's a picture of the front of an Edelbrock water pump, showing the five mounting bosses and holes used for various purposes on FE engines:



It sure would be nice to have the water pump adapters have these mounting bosses, especially the ones on the engine's right side, so that the factory alternator brackets could be used.  Last night and this morning I spent some time starting to draw the adapters up on my CAD program, and have figured out that I can probably machine the adapters to include these bosses.  The bad news is that the machining program would be rather complex, and would also require each of the adapters to be set up in four different positions to complete all the machining operations.  This would make the adapters relatively expensive compared to adapters that just mounted the pump, because those could be machined in just two setup positions.

Let's say just as a ballpark figure the standard adapters would cost $120 per pair, and the ones with the bosses would cost $200 per pair.  What do you guys think, would it be worth it to include the mounting bosses and holes for the factory brackets, or not?  All comments welcomed - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

sixty9cobra

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 06:01:57 PM »
I would go for the one with the bosses. Unfortunately your getting close to the 500 dollar Meziere. For the extra money you dont have to make all kinds adaptors to mount your alternator and power steering. How much HP do you think an electric water pump frees up?

afret

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 06:19:29 PM »
Would the water pump with adapter stick out no more a regular belt driven pump so there would be enough clearance for a puller electric fan mounted on a radiator?

The bosses would make it simpler for street use but either way you would be providing a much needing product.   :)


fetorino

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 06:23:35 PM »
Jay I'd say from a marketing standpoint the bosses at the additional cost would make sense.  For the $450 total price a guy would get a 55gpm pump and NOT have to spend additional $$ on specialty brackets for Their build. 

Sure some guys, including me wouldn't mind the $370 total with no bosses since we may be looking to make specialty brackets for accessories anyway but either way the pump isn't cheap but it is usable.

True you are getting close to the Meziere price but I don't think everyone realizes at that price from Meziere they either get: not enough flow, or still have to build specialty adapters (as you did) to make the big pump work.

ToddK

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 07:50:13 PM »
Just thinking out loud here, but would it be possible to mill/machine an existing water pump, such as the Edelbrock, to adapt an electric water pump? Much in the same way as the big block Chrysler set up, where the housing and pump are two separate pieces?

jayb

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 08:44:47 PM »
I would go for the one with the bosses. Unfortunately your getting close to the 500 dollar Meziere. For the extra money you dont have to make all kinds adaptors to mount your alternator and power steering. How much HP do you think an electric water pump frees up?

I really don't know how much power an electric water pump is worth, but I would guess 10-15 HP.  Sounds like a good dyno test, actually.  One other thing - the $500 Meziere still needs adapters to bolt to the FE (which are not available; I had to machine my own), and it also doesn't allow the factory accessories to bolt on.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 08:46:30 PM »
Would the water pump with adapter stick out no more a regular belt driven pump so there would be enough clearance for a puller electric fan mounted on a radiator?

The bosses would make it simpler for street use but either way you would be providing a much needing product.   :)

Keeping the electric pump inside the factory space envelope would be the objective, so installing a puller electric fan should be no problem.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 08:48:00 PM »
Jay I'd say from a marketing standpoint the bosses at the additional cost would make sense.  For the $450 total price a guy would get a 55gpm pump and NOT have to spend additional $$ on specialty brackets for Their build. 

Sure some guys, including me wouldn't mind the $370 total with no bosses since we may be looking to make specialty brackets for accessories anyway but either way the pump isn't cheap but it is usable.

True you are getting close to the Meziere price but I don't think everyone realizes at that price from Meziere they either get: not enough flow, or still have to build specialty adapters (as you did) to make the big pump work.

I guess there is no reason I couldn't do both types, come to think of it...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 08:52:04 PM »
Just thinking out loud here, but would it be possible to mill/machine an existing water pump, such as the Edelbrock, to adapt an electric water pump? Much in the same way as the big block Chrysler set up, where the housing and pump are two separate pieces?

The impeller on the electric pumps looks a lot different than on a factory mechanical pump, and I don't think you could make that work real easily.  The shape of the impeller cavity and the relationship between the impeller and the cavity has a large impact on the flow capability of the pump.  On the other hand, I might be able to do a casting at some point with the correct cavity shape, that one of these pumps could bolt into.  That's a more involved project, though...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

amdscooter

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 01:19:07 PM »
I'm far from an expert here but it sure seems as if it'd be possible to use a "pancake" electric motor in the space behind the pump. Perhaps use the plate back there as a template. Wonder how much impeller/torque you'd actually need to keep the water moving through the circuit? 

thatdarncat

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2012, 03:24:09 PM »
How much HP do you think an electric water pump frees up?

A few years ago I switched my '67 Mustang with a 428 that I regularly drag race from a stock water pump and a Ford flex fan to a Meziere electric and an electric fan. I've made hundreds of passes and keep a logbook. With no other changes the car went from 12.20's to 11.70's. I was expecting an improvement, but was surprised at half a second. I did have to change from my 1G 60 amp alternator to a 3G 130 amp, and having bosses for the alternator mount would have saved a lot of work.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

machoneman

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2012, 03:57:12 PM »
I would have checked my gas tank to be sure no one slipped about 5 gallons of 100% nitro in when I wasn't looking! LOL! A 1/2 second gain is mighty suspect IMHO as even a 75hp increase wouldn't equal a 1/2 second gain in an already low 12 second car. 

HR says less than 10 hp for the pump:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1201_baseline_testing_do_water_pumps_suck_power/
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 04:09:19 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

Chad D

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 05:38:06 PM »
I would have checked my gas tank to be sure no one slipped about 5 gallons of 100% nitro in when I wasn't looking! LOL! A 1/2 second gain is mighty suspect IMHO as even a 75hp increase wouldn't equal a 1/2 second gain in an already low 12 second car. 

HR says less than 10 hp for the pump:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1201_baseline_testing_do_water_pumps_suck_power/

It was the pump and fan in this case, but I agree, a half second is an awful lot.  The MPH difference (not mentioned) might tell a different story.  Perhaps thatdarncat will fill in that detail.

machoneman

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 06:04:44 PM »
True, and I can't readily find the 2003 Car Craft fan dyno test. I don't btw doubt the car picked up the 1/2 second but find it hard to accept it was only due to the electric pump AND fan not turning during a run. More details would help.
Bob Maag

thatdarncat

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Re: CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 02:02:02 AM »
MPH went from 110-110.5 to 113-113.5, so a 3mph gain. I made the change in 2005. And again, I agree, I was surprised too. And to clarify, the alternator change wasn't made until the next season. As they say, "your results may vary". Don't want to take away from Jay's post on the Pump adaptors, but it would be interesting to hear others experiences. Also, weight of car is 3400 pounds with me in it as raced, 3200 pounds on it's own.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 02:12:13 AM by thatdarncat »
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V