Author Topic: 428 overheating at idle  (Read 5096 times)

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happystang

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428 overheating at idle
« on: February 17, 2019, 02:07:22 AM »
I'm on the second rebuild of my 428, the first build lasted about 200 miles before a rod bearing self destructed. During that span, the motor ran great with temps ranging from 185-195.

It's now overheating at idle after being rebuilt a second time and I'm losing my mind trying to figure out the cause. The moment I bring the RPM up, the tempture shoots down, cruising its stone cold. I'm using a mechanical water temp gauge. EVERYTHING is the same as it was on the prior build, same timing, carb tuning, clutch fan, water pump etc. I'm running a Derale clutch fan with a factory shroud and ACP 3 row aluminum radiator.

The second rebuild consisted of new bearings, rings, hone, and crank regrind (and new gaskets of course). The machine shop built the short block, I assembled the rest. I purchased the exact same gaskets as before. I never pulled the thermostat, it's the same one that was in the motor before the second rebuild.

The head gaskets are not backwards and I did a block test to verify that there aren't combustion gases getting into the cooling system.

With the cap off, I can see coolant flowing when the thermostat opens. I've tried moving the initial timing anywhere from 8-22 degrees with no change, I left it where it ran best around 14. I even removed the PCV just to see if it was sucking in too much air and making it run lean at idle, again no change.

The only change is from a standard volume up to a high volume pump and the addition of oil restrictors in the cylinder head for the rocker arms (I'm using a massive Canton oil pan).


What gives? At idle it creeps up past 215+, but when the RPM's increase or I begin cruising it's 175-180.

machoneman

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2019, 08:07:47 AM »
Change the t-stat. Drill 1-2 small holes in the perimeter area first (say 1/32). Fill. Jack the car up about 1' to ensure any trapped air bubble goes away. Run it till hot, heater on. You may have a hot spot due to air in the cooling system.
Bob Maag

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2019, 09:40:32 AM »
Overheat at idle.  No issue at all once rpm's come up and car moves?

I think my first thing to look at would be the clutch fan locking up sufficiently.

shady

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2019, 11:35:56 AM »
I'd put some miles on it & see what happens.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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C8OZ

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2019, 11:42:02 AM »
At that temp, if the fan clutch is working right, you should feel a heavy blast of very hot air behind the fan. No big wind, the clutch isn't locking. Big cool wind, there's a coolant flow issue.

My427stang

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2019, 11:49:14 AM »
How many miles on the new motor?  Sometimes a tight fresh engine with old school high tension rings and a fresh crosshatch can be a little warm, but a day of driving should loosen things up

Like others have said, I'd check the fan close, and maybe swap the thermostat and drill a single small hole at 12 o'clock.

Also, not sure how the heater works on the car, but if it's a on/off valve like on the pickups, open the valve and let the hot water circulate, it should purge any air above the thermostat

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

wowens

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2019, 02:21:07 PM »
No airflow through radiator at idle . I think something has gone wrong with the fan clutch.  If it proves out I'm wrong it will only be the 11,236th time.
Woody

plovett

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2019, 02:47:04 PM »
Agreeing with everybody else.  Hot at idle, but fine at higher rpm points to an airflow issue.

JMO,

paulie

plovett

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2019, 02:49:51 PM »
I know you said everything is the same, but are you using the same pulley on the water pump and crank?  Underdrive pulleys can do what you are describing.

paulie

happystang

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 05:51:08 PM »
Thank you all for the suggestions. I have about 15 miles on the motor but several hours worth of run time at idle.

Today I tried a new 180* thermostat with a hole drilled in it along with adjusting the time timing. The fan clutch still has plenty of drag, it's a Murray 2711 and I can feel it blowing air at idle. The fan will even suck a piece of paper to the front of the radiator and hold it there at idle.

The pulleys are the factory units that I had on the prior rebuild.

I'm officially stumped.

My427stang

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 06:42:36 PM »
If it doesn't boil over, run it a bit.  215 may be different, but it's not too hot under pressure. 

15 miles and no load idle isn't much, not saying what you are seeing is common place, but if big 5/64 3/32 ring pack, standard tension oil rings and a coarse hatch, they can build some heat.

If it were mine, and it's behaving normally otherwise, I'd get some miles on it and see what it does.   

BTW, lean idle doesn't make a 4 stroke run hot at idle, retarded timing, poor airflow, air bound, etc sure does.  Any chance you are doing something accidentally like setting initial with the vacuum advance hooked up?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 06:44:15 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

wowens

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 07:03:30 PM »
How long between builds ?
Woody

shady

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2019, 09:09:06 AM »
I once had a mouse build a nest in the radiator while it was pulled out over winter. Couldn't see it until it let loose.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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BigBlueIron

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2019, 04:13:30 PM »


The head gaskets are not backwards and I did a block test to verify that there aren't combustion gases getting into the cooling system.


A backwards head gasket will not necessarily push combustion gasses into the coolant. It just blocks flow.

 I would verify they are correct, it is easy to get one backwards (I've done it) especially since some gaskets are a different color on each side say blue on one side black on the other, messes with a persons head that one would be flipped over to be in the correct position. This can be done with a quick visual check. http://www.fordfe.info/Forum/FAQ-Style-index2.html#HeadGasketInstall or https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1118889-overheating-issue-after-engine-tear-down.html

Sorry for posting from FTE but the description and photos are excellent. Rare to actually see correct info on that site.

machoneman

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Re: 428 overheating at idle
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2019, 06:15:53 PM »


The head gaskets are not backwards and I did a block test to verify that there aren't combustion gases getting into the cooling system.


A backwards head gasket will not necessarily push combustion gasses into the coolant. It just blocks flow.

 I would verify they are correct, it is easy to get one backwards (I've done it) especially since some gaskets are a different color on each side say blue on one side black on the other, messes with a persons head that one would be flipped over to be in the correct position. This can be done with a quick visual check. http://www.fordfe.info/Forum/FAQ-Style-index2.html#HeadGasketInstall or https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1118889-overheating-issue-after-engine-tear-down.html

Sorry for posting from FTE but the description and photos are excellent. Rare to actually see correct info on that site.

My 1st thought as well!
Bob Maag