Author Topic: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question  (Read 5002 times)

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urchinhead

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Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« on: January 05, 2019, 10:54:41 PM »
Has anyone swapped springs or used a specific rebuild kit to adjust pressure on a carter mechanical fuel pump?

I had an issue a couple months back, swapping in a Holley carb, and having overpressurized pumps blow past the o-rings. Drew advised me to use a regulator, and run it at 4.5 PSI. I have all the parts to experiment with and hopefully fix the issue, but the fuel pump regulator I have advises that a relief valve is needed. Is this really necessary with a 1 to 2 psi adjustment?

I tested an old A.C. pump, and Airtex and a cheaper Carter, all in the 6.0 to 7.0 range. I have a Carter M6905 new in the box, and have not tested it yet. This is for a pickup, and I was hoping to keep it simple, without adding an electric pump and more filters.
1964 Galaxie 500 Convertible, drivetrain on stand
1970 F100 Custom, 428 - body work and paint in progress

67428GT500

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2019, 11:34:55 PM »
I just changed from the M6905 because it was at 9 PSI. Look in the last week feed for the subject I started. I went and purchased the Eldelbrock 1724. 6 PSI max. I can't run a regulator on my Shelby because of the hard line and 427 canister filter.   Apparently a lot
of people are having issues with high fuel pressure with some of the aftermarket pumps.         -Keith
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:31:54 AM by 67428GT500 »


urchinhead

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2019, 11:52:52 AM »
Thanks for the lead. I did read that, and did not want to hi-jack. I also wanted to find out the end result, when you are back on the road - good luck with your recovery, by the way.

 I am curious as to what the factory pumps were putting out.

My A.C. pump was about 6.5 psi, and I believe it to be original to my 1964 390 motor, but I have no idea if it was ever rebuilt.
1964 Galaxie 500 Convertible, drivetrain on stand
1970 F100 Custom, 428 - body work and paint in progress

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2019, 12:54:45 PM »
I had these intermittent flooding issues.
I tried everything until I finally got to installing a regulator.

I'm sorry if it looks bad, or doesn't fit into what you want, but everything else is really just a bandaid, trying to overcome the fuel pressure issue.

I know lotsa folks will say they run 7psi and have no issues.  Heck I can do that too, but the one time it floods at a red light, you just don't want that to happen again.  Having four bowls makes it even more of a possibility.  Seems like once a needle and seat gets blown open it makes it more likely to happen again.  I'd say the majority of dual quad issues I see are just too much fuel pressure.
Due to ethanol in the fuel, often fuel in the line will flash to vapor.  This builds even more pressure and you get a massive rush of vapor/fuel pushing itself forcefully into the bowls.  This is less of an issue with externally vented bowls, but still an issue.

For dual quad setups, the main keys that I use to get a clean idle:

-4.5-5.5psi fuel pressure
-Setting primary transfer slots fully covered, then back them open just a crack.  Set idle with the secondaries
-Float setting: set primary bowl level with the roof.  Set secondary level with the roof and crank it down two flats on the adjuster.
-1 turn out from fully seated on the idle mixture screws

When building 2x4 carbs from scratch, the settings above result in a successful test run 95% of the time with no other adjustments.  I rarely even have to alter the idle mixture screws.  If an engine desires a richer or leaner idle I prefer to make the change at the transfer slot or on the secondary idle feed restriction.


The holley books and common wisdom tells you to set the transfer slot square, or .020 or whatever.  It tells you to set the floats level with the sight glass holes.
These carbs are installed backwards on 2x4 setups, so the sight holes aren't as accurate as they should be.
Why the transfer slot change?
Remember the idle circuit has one entry but two exits.  One is regulated by the mixture screw, and one is regulated by the transfer slot exposure.
With one carb you have vacuum pulling at two slots and two secondary leak holes.
Add a second carb and you now have the same vacuum pulling at four slots and four leak holes.
The obvious conclusion is you'd need half or less of that slot appearing.
Jetting doesn't have the same effect as it works more via pressure differential than by vacuum.

Float level:
It isn't just about spilling out of the boosters or leaking into the idle feed.  It's about circuit timing.  The higher the float, the more emulsion air from the air well pushes into the main well full of fuel.  The lighter that fuel becomes since it is aerated, the sooner it'll flow out of the booster.
Experiment to prove this:
Look into carb and slowly raise RPM until boosters start.
Raise or lower float significantly and repeat the test.  You'll notice 500rpm or more difference in booster flow.
This is why float level is so critical even beyond the obvious "blowing past" a needle and seat.

If you look at Ford/Holley 3x2 carburetors you'll find how they worked this.
The primary carb has a very large High Speed bleed, .040 if I recall.  So you have a lot of air headed into the air well.  There is NO lower emulsion hole, the high hole is .027, the angle channel has a .027 hole, and there is a .027 hole from the upper angle channel drilled clear into the idle well.  The outboard carbs are somewhat more conventional in setup, but the idea which shows out on an O2 meter and also while visually inspecting these, is that the fuel foam on the primary carb blows toward the booster super early.  You have no massive flow, but you have very early flow that progresses as rpm rises.  Of course by then the secondary carbs are in action and the fuel need is met without flooding out the engine.
Booster flowthrough effects idle as well.  Too large of a HSAB compounds this.  Don't believe me?  block the high speed air bleed flow at idle and watch A/F mixture go lean.  There is always flow through into the venturi from the boosters.
Why did I mention this?  (Besides wanting to ramble) because if the float level is too high, either due to settings or due to uncontrolled fuel pressure, or if the HSAB is too large, it'll effect idle A/F ratio in a way you cannot control via typical idle fuel settings.

Or something.

urchinhead

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2019, 11:12:22 PM »
Fuel delivery should obstensibly not be quite as complicated as it has become, especially when using essentially stock components. With the changes in fuel composition and the lack of quality control in newer parts, it seems that everyone has become accustomed to using electric fuel pumps and regulators, which get the job done.

I suppose what piques my curiosity is that the traditional mechanical fuel pump is simple, and that a spring and diagram operated by a lever control the vacuum and pump operation. I have multiple pumps, various o-rings and a few different carburetors to monkey with when I find the time. But I would imagine that the experienced members of this forum have been able to use different springs or other parts to raise or lower the pressure.

I remember that there were, “blueprinted,” fuel pumps sold in catalogs when carburetors were still popular for street motors. Drew has been busting his ass to learn everything about Holley carburetors, and members such as Faron have dedicated countless hours to distributors. There are water pump tests, and home oil drainage studies, not to mention the myriad of flow tests on heads and intakes, but zilch on fuel pumps that I have been able to find. Even the brand X forums seem in the same boat.

I might be out on a snipe hunt/wild goose chase, but I think there must be another tried and true approach that worked in the past.

If not, I already have a blocking style Fuelab regulator, and am curious what venting is adequate to still use a factory looking mechanical pump - either a vented mechanical pump, or a line to the tank or charcoal canister. The instructions with the regulator only show a vented electric pump.

1964 Galaxie 500 Convertible, drivetrain on stand
1970 F100 Custom, 428 - body work and paint in progress

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2019, 11:35:47 PM »
Makes sense to have a simple, changable bypass spring.  Would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a high quality regulator.  Certainly help folks like Keith who have a period correct car, or for folks that have rules to follow.

I find the "jerk" type pumps, like these manual lift pumps are more likely to push a needle off it's seat at the same pressure as an electric pump.  This is compounded by a manual pump being semi controlled by rpm, quality control aside, I would never chose to run a manual pump on a performance vehicle unless given no other choice.

Also, the vapor in the fuel line phenomena I mentioned above is more likely with an engine mounted pump.  (bolting a gasoline lift pump to a hot engine block makes the gas hotter).  Maybe some of these issues weren't issues in 1960, but Reid Vapor Pressures and specific gravity of the fuels are vastly different now, mostly because Fuel injection doesn't care as much.

67428GT500

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 05:39:09 AM »
Drew, perhaps one of the most clear and concise explanations I have yet to read. I have six books on Holley Carburetors.  Often there are so many variables that come from poor manufacturing, primarily those that have been driven off-shore and made in China. Thanks Unions!
Setting up dual quads is as complicated as you getting into the Boeing 737 I fly and trying to start the turbofans. It's ridiculous.  So many have become reliant on electronics that the basic skills are lost.  Carburetion and tuning is certainly becoming a lost art.

                                                                                        -Keith
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 05:41:56 AM by 67428GT500 »

babybolt

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 02:11:29 PM »
What is in the mechanical fuel pump that controls the outlet pressure - is it the diaphram spring or something in the check valves?

BTW, I tried a bunch of different things to make a mechanical fuel pump work for drag racing, including the big diameter fuel pump with 1/2" fittings, and never got it to work right.  Would run out of fuel a little over 1/2 way down the track.

chris401

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2019, 07:53:07 PM »
I had these intermittent flooding issues.
I tried everything until I finally got to installing a regulator.

I'm sorry if it looks bad, or doesn't fit into what you want, but everything else is really just a bandaid, trying to overcome the fuel pressure issue.
Yeah what I did over a year ago looks like rigged up crap but it does the job. Sinse I spend less time under the hood these days it is easier to let go. Note the treated 2X6.

babybolt

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2019, 06:09:47 PM »
The reason I asked about the internals of the mechanical fuel pump is the I am wondering if it could be converted into a fuel pressure regulator by removing the arm, then using the pump shell.

chris401

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 09:52:04 AM »
The reason I asked about the internals of the mechanical fuel pump is the I am wondering if it could be converted into a fuel pressure regulator by removing the arm, then using the pump shell.
There is a place in the North East that sells rebuild kits for AC fuel pumps. They sold me a kit and a extra spring to regulate the pump to 4 psi. I have not installed it yet. If you talked to an actual rebuilder I am sure they could supply you a custom spring.

chris401

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 10:30:34 PM »
The reason I asked about the internals of the mechanical fuel pump is the I am wondering if it could be converted into a fuel pressure regulator by removing the arm, then using the pump shell.
It is called "Then And Now". Seems the builder I spoke with was named Rick.
http://www.then-now-auto.com/fuel-pump-repair-kits/

67428GT500

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2019, 01:55:04 PM »
Chris, Did the two monkeys at AAMCO do that install?  ;D ;D    I have the 427 canister filter with the hard metal line to the fuel rail. There is no way to put in a regulator. The power steering pump even makes for more complications.

                                                                                                   -Keith

chris401

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Re: Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Question
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2019, 08:03:50 PM »
I have the 427 canister filter with the hard metal line to the rail.
Yeah, I read that a dozen times.