Author Topic: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show  (Read 15403 times)

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shady

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 03:45:31 PM »
I look at it like buying a watch. You can buy a Timex or you can buy a Rolex. The LS is the Timex. Fast & cheap & at least it keeps the youngsters interested in motorsports, a good thing. The FE is the piece that only few will spend big money on. I like having something that is different and is pleasing to look at. Sure Jay won't make millions at this, but I for one am glad there are guys out there making all this stuff & pushing the envelope. Build it and they will come. Where it will be in 25 years is anybody's guess.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
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turbohunter

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2018, 04:08:42 PM »
... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...

The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.

Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
Yeah you’re gonna get beat by Jethro in his turbohoozy but I don’t care. Heck I still roll up my windows with a crank.
And yeah it costs a lot but if you’ve got the scratch why not. I’m done with alimony. ;)
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


ec164

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 04:38:40 PM »
What a Great display Jay, and effort in getting your projects so close to being ready to start taking orders. How you find time to post on here is amazing....Best of Luck to you!   Al
You're ahead in a Mercury......all the way

Gregwill16

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2018, 05:32:39 PM »
Great job Jay! We are very fortunate to have you in our corner. I'm guessing by what you have accomplished in a short time frame, blocks will be in the near future.

mike7570

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2018, 07:40:20 PM »
... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...

The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.

Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.

I got your block 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 07:43:53 PM by mike7570 »

cjshaker

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2018, 08:27:31 PM »
... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...

The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.

There are 3 blocks (albeit, not always easily available) that can safely take 1000+ horsepower, if built properly. One is probably good to 2000+. Competitively priced is another issue. There will never be enough demand to allow a 'cheap' block. That's just the business side of things. Besides, trying to compare a 60 year old design to a modern design is like comparing a rotary phone to a cell phone. What's the point?
By the way, I still have a rotary phone..lol
I also like crank up windows, Marc  ;D
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

FElony

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2018, 09:27:00 PM »
... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...

The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.

Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.

I got your block 



Excellent. I assume it is competitively priced, so I'll send you $2500 for it so I can start building a bumpkin beater. Thanks for the deal!

FElony

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2018, 09:36:42 PM »
... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...

The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.

Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
Yeah you’re gonna get beat by Jethro in his turbohoozy but I don’t care. Heck I still roll up my windows with a crank.
And yeah it costs a lot but if you’ve got the scratch why not. I’m done with alimony. ;)

Yes, but if 100% of the FE's get hozed by a hoozy, then we are all gonna care because we become irrelevant dinosaurs. At that point, run brackets or do cruise-ins. Not that there's anything wrong with brackets.

Certainly, I hope Jay does well with his new and existing products, despite his myopic dismissal of the vast wealth in the clear distributor cap market.

FElony

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2018, 09:39:50 PM »
... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...

The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.

There are 3 blocks (albeit, not always easily available) that can safely take 1000+ horsepower, if built properly. One is probably good to 2000+. Competitively priced is another issue. There will never be enough demand to allow a 'cheap' block. That's just the business side of things. Besides, trying to compare a 60 year old design to a modern design is like comparing a rotary phone to a cell phone. What's the point?
By the way, I still have a rotary phone..lol
I also like crank up windows, Marc  ;D

Basically, I rephrased what you originally said. So there. I have a rotary phone, too. Not connected, but it serves as a reminder of the good old days, when dinosaurs walked the Earth.

thatdarncat

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2018, 09:51:32 PM »
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

jayb

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2018, 09:56:49 PM »
Jay,
If that’s a weiand tunnel ram fitted to your adapter?
could you possibly run a tape over it, if you have time.
I am interested in china wall to the carby face.
Total mounted height.
I would love to run that setup, but need to try keep within the laws of my state.
Thanks for all your FE bits and great posts with lots of facts.
Allways a great and interesting read.
Thanks
Joel

I've measured that before and I think it is 11.75".  If that's not it exactly, it is close to that.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

turbohunter

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2018, 09:59:27 PM »
Anybody notice how thin Jay is getting. Sexy. ;)
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


jayb

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2018, 10:24:10 PM »
Don't think that I'm trying to be negative, I'm just wondering about some possible issues.

1: With the exhaust ports aimed directly out, they would aim squarely at a shock tower. Have you determined if they would be usable in a tower car? Being the ports are cut back, they may be, but not sure. Plugs could be a real PITA to get at however. On a non-tower or tube chassis car, certainly not an issue.

2: With such a big offset rocker, wouldn't that place the pushrod at an extreme angle? Would that cause an issue with bending or deflecting? Would it also cause an issue with side-loading the lifter? With a longer valve, a fairly significant increase in rocker mass, plus a huge pushrod to resist deflecting, it seems the weight increase might be a big detriment, and possibly hard to control at the higher RPMs.

Being that the head, adapter, rocker system and I think the intake must all be used together, not to mention a special distributor, or more accurately an oil pump drive; that would be a very expensive route to go. I wouldn't think many people would be willing to drop that much coin on an entire upper end, unless all out performance, in a non-class racing venue was the goal. I suppose somebody could make their own intake, only requiring the heads, rocker system and adapter to be used as a package.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture. The pieces look awesome, just not usable for the average FE guy. Any chance to see a shot of the combustion chamber?

Geez Doug, why do you have to be so negative?   ;D ;D

Just kidding, all good questions.  To begin with, this head will not work with a stock shock tower car, there is just no room for the headers.  However, I believe it will work with shock tower that has been modified by A) Running a coil over shock and removing the factory spring, and B) Cutting back the tower for header clearance.  I'm going to be putting these heads on the engine in my 68 Mustang, so I will report on what is required for modifications when I do that.  The other thing is that an awful lot of cars are getting the shock towers removed and new front suspensions installed, and of course the heads would work with those installations.

On the pushrod angle, which works out to 7 degrees on this design, have you ever seen a Chrysler hemi valvetrain?  Those pushrods are angled way more than mine, and they don't seem to have any problems.  I'm not worried about the pushrod angle.

Regarding cost, have you priced out a set of CNC ported heads lately, maybe a set of Pro-ports?  You are spending a minimum of $3500 on the heads.  Then if you get a good intake, and a T&D race rocker setup, you are up in the same kind of price range as my package will be with the single 4 intake.  Add a Hogan intake to the existing parts and compare to my package with a billet intake, and my package may be LESS expensive.  Finally, I'm nearly certain that my individual runner intake manifold would be less expensive than a comparable version for an existing FE, so there you would be saving money.

Regarding the distributor, I should have been clearer about this in my original post.  A distributor can be used, you just need to have an offset distributor.  Or maybe I will build a distributor that just distributes the spark (no pickup or advance mechanism), so it can be lower and will fit, and then rely on a crank trigger for timing and the EFI system for timing control.  Lots of ways to skin that cat.  My approach would probably be individual coil packs because I like the way that setup works.  I've made a few of the oil pump drive setups for people, and have charged $100 to modify a stock distributor, so that is not an obstacle.

Finally, I would say that these pieces are certainly NOT for the average FE guy.  These are for the race guys who think an 800 HP engine is not enough.  The package should be good for 850 HP out of the box, and over 1000 HP in modified form.  I think it also could be used to make a very mildly cammed, docile 650-700 HP engine.  In that case you would rely on the heads to get you the power you need, rather than increasing the cam and compression.  So the market for these parts is limited, which is fine because I don't have the production capacity to build a whole bunch of heads, intake adapters, intakes, and rocker setups. 

I hope that better explains my rationale behind this project.  I think the key point is that this setup is not for everybody, but it does fill a hole, as I perceive it anyway, in the FE market.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2018, 10:30:18 PM »
Questions:

1)  Will the crossram only work with your new heads' port configuration?
2)  Will you provide a stub shaft in place of the distributor to drive the oil pump?
3)  could the injectors (and fuel rails) be mounted in the valley area, on the lower side of the runners (to reduce installed height)?
4)  would some sort of vacuum chamber connecting the individual runners be useful?
5)  can't tell, is there a 'dent' in the driver's side clear valve cover to clear a brake booster?
6)  How could ordinary people visit PRI --- Friday first thing hypothetically?

1.  Yes
2.  I can do that, yes.
3.  I looked at putting the fuel rails underneath but access to them would be pretty limited, and directing the fuel from underneath is not as good as directing it towards the back of the valve.  I haven't abandoned the idea and may go that route in the end if I need the space, but would prefer to keep the fuel rails up top.
4.  A vacuum chamber would be required to get a decent MAP signal to the EFI system, and I would build it into the plate of the intake adapter.
5.  No dent in the clear valve cover, and I haven't test fit it to see if it would clear.  I think there's a reasonably good chance that it will, but don't know for sure.
6.  As Kevin mentioned, bring an automotive related business card with your name on it to the PRI show; you can register at the show and get in.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: FE Power at the 2018 PRI Show
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2018, 10:31:10 PM »
Jay, I won't be making it this year as I had anticipated. I believe John Bamber is still going to swing by and introduce himself however.
I met John today Mike, we had a nice chat.  He sure has a nice 5 axis CNC machine...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC