Author Topic: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?  (Read 3260 times)

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happystang

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How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« on: September 24, 2018, 12:59:27 AM »
I just finished assembling the short block for my .030 over 428 FE, these the numbers I got for my ring end gaps:

Piston:     First ring:    Second ring:

#1          .019             .021
#2          .020             .022
#3          .020             .025 (Oops)
#4          .021             .021
#5          .023             .021
#6          .021             .021
#7          .019             .021
#8          .019             .026 (Oops)

They're forged TRW pistons with *I think* plain old nothing special Sealed Power rings. The person who originally assembled the short block had everything gapped at .011-.014 which seems WAY to tight, thank god he/she never finished building the motor/try running it.

New Clevite bearings were installed then plastigage'd, everything came in right around .0015ish. Took it all apart again then reassembled everything with Royal Purple assembly lube. I reused the original main cap bolts and torqued everything down in 3 steps to 105 ft/lbs (I still need to plastigage the rod caps).

I just happened to have a dial indicator laying around (No idea where it came from) and checked the thrust as well, I got around .008 which seems in the ballpark.

This is my first time building a short block from scratch so please bear with me :)

IMG_7136.JPG-1 by armon7, on Flickr

blykins

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2018, 05:06:28 AM »
.019/.021" are good numbers to shoot for.  I agree, the previous gaps were way too tight. 

I'd like to see the bearing clearances a bit looser and here's why:  when measuring with Plastigage, you can't see all the tolerances that are stacked against you.  Journals can be tapered, they can be out of round, they can be under/over sized.  If all of that were to be stacked against you, without correction, then your bearing clearance could go from .0015" to .001" pretty quickly.  If this were a build where everything was mic'd, corrected, and made perfect, then you could make a .0015" main bearing clearance work with proper oil viscosity and use.  However, in cases like this, I'd rather see main bearing clearances up around .0025".  Even when I build them here in the shop, I choose my main bearing clearances to be .0025-.003", and that's with me being very anal about measuring and correcting issues.

Otherwise, congratulations on your first short block.  It gets very addicting.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
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My427stang

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2018, 05:49:06 AM »
Brent certainly gave you good advice, but let me piggy back

1 - Ring gaps look good, I wouldn't even think about them again

2 - The main bearing clearance - Is .0015 good? Absolutely fine for a street strip car or stocker IF you can measure accurately, as you climb in power and abuse, having more clearance adds safety. Plastigauge generally does not measure accurately though IMHO.  I have seen it wrong in both directions.  The question is, do you trust it?  It's likely fine, most commonly it shows tighter than actual, but if you could have a machinist check those clearances with a bore gauge, it may make me or the Plastigauge a liar :) 

I don't know the details of the build, but as Brent advised, if you are running hard, leaning a bit bigger is safer.  That being said, if you verified the .0015 and its a street/strip car, I wouldn't be afraid of it

FYI I used to be a Plastigauge guy too, many years.  I used to say I just needed new stuff to get a good reading. I don't waste time or money anymore, mics and bore gauges give real repeatable numbers 

3 - Thrust looks good.  A less critical number IMHO, more concerned that it's there and not too tight.  I always measure, but you get to know the sticky thump noise it makes when it's good enough LOL

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2018, 07:30:13 AM »
I will agree with the comments so far, with a single added note.  As much as I detest Plastigage - and I truly hate the stuff - it does give a very good visual on barrel and taper shapes on a crank journal.

cjshaker

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2018, 08:34:09 AM »
No comment on the clearances, but that '67/'68 Shelby Boss 302 has to be the rarest Mustang I've ever seen  :o ;)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Falcon67

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2018, 09:14:48 AM »
Count in one more as above LOL.  I was a mechanical inspector for several years, so I have a full setup of mics, jo blocks, bore gauge, etc, etc to work with.  I usually set my top gap per the piston mfg recommendation - almost always around .020~.022 because I don't spray or other power add, then shoot for +.004 from the top measure on the 2nd.  Takes time to do right.  Get a whet stone with a little 3-on-1 oil to gently buff the edges of the gaps all around after filing.  Wash the ring set and stick them all in the hole you just worked.  Then pull them out when it's time to do the piston install for that hole.  They don't get lost or mis-marked that way.

Falcon67

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2018, 09:25:24 AM »
>This is my first time building a short block from scratch so please bear with me :)

PS - take your time, keep notes, ask any question - the only "stupid" question is the one not asked.  If anything doesn't look "right" - stop and sort it out.  We have all been there with varied end results LOL.  The one key thing I've found over the years is that the attention to the details is what makes for a better than average build. Sweating the small stuff will put you way ahead of how lots of people seem to work. 

happystang

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2018, 12:50:53 PM »
No comment on the clearances, but that '67/'68 Shelby Boss 302 has to be the rarest Mustang I've ever seen  :o ;)

What can I say, the 70's were apparently a dark time :) . S code '68 fastback, '70 boss 302 stripes, '68 shelby fiber glass, '69/70 mirrors, '70 grabber yellow paint, and a hole cut for a shaker hood (complete with trim ring)! The car was last on the road in 1977, the original 390 was supposedly blown up at an LA drag strip. There's still VHT tire glue splattered all over the wheel wells.

Needless to say I've been slowly returning it back into a normal non-yellow '68 fastback.

IMG_6705.JPG by armon7, on Flickr

IMG_6689.JPG by armon7, on Flickr

I completely understand that plastigage isn't the most ideal when it comes to measuring clearances. The engine is going to be somewhat mild, the goal of this car was to have a tame cruiser for the street (with some balls). The short block is already assembled, does this warrant taking it all apart again? The crank was mic'd when it was polished and I was told to use 20 undersized bearings.

Using Edelbrock RPM heads/intake, Lunati hydraulic roller cam

Cam specs:

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/270
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 211/219
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .559/.559
LSA/ICL: 112/106
Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 1600-5600

machoneman

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2018, 04:01:51 PM »
Now with the pics I get the '68 Boss 302 crack!

Nice clean car. Hey, those period wheels may be worth a few bucks as well as other parts you may take off.
Bob Maag

cjshaker

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2018, 06:37:44 PM »
What can I say, the 70's were apparently a dark time :) . S code '68 fastback, '70 boss 302 stripes, '68 shelby fiber glass, '69/70 mirrors, '70 grabber yellow paint, and a hole cut for a shaker hood (complete with trim ring)! The car was last on the road in 1977, the original 390 was supposedly blown up at an LA drag strip. There's still VHT tire glue splattered all over the wheel wells.

There were some cool things that came out of the '70s also, like big 'n littles, tunnel rams, nose down rakes etc. At least they didn't hack it up like lots of people did back then. Being a California car, I'm guessing it's pretty solid, which is a huge advantage. And being parked at only 9 years old, it hasn't been beat to death. Looks like a nice project.

Platigage isn't the greatest way to measure, but I don't want to be the one to tell you to tear it back down and start all over. Like Barry alluded to with the taper comment, IF you carefully checked all the mains, and ran the string from side to side of each journal, and there was a nice consistent thickness throughout the string of plastigage, I'd probably run it and just keep an eye on your oil filter for any strange particles during the first several oil changes. You're not going to be running the engine that hard with that cam anyway. BUT, and this is a big but, you did say that the clearances came in at .0015 "ish". That .0015 doesn't leave you any wiggle room, so if that "ish" means that some were less than that, you're walking a thin line then. Remember, the clearance measurement is for both sides of the journal, top and bottom, so you only have half that clearance between the journal and the bearing at any given time. If that "ish" is more like .0012-.0013, then you're looking at only .0006 between the journal and bearing while under running conditions. That's barely half a thousandths, and that ain't so good. If that's the case, I'd be concerned and probably have the crank polished to remove another half thousandths, if it's possible to remove that much during a polish. The engine guys may be able to remark about that better than me.

Since you haven't done the rods yet, I'd be checking them before you made any final decisions. Don't consider the crank installation done until you verify that ALL clearances are good. Calling it "done" because you don't want to pull it back apart leads to thoughts of "it's good enough" when you come across something else that is borderline. Like Kevin noted, it's the fine details that are the difference between an engine that 'runs' and an engine that runs good...for a good long while. It's more work, and it's more time, but you'll be much better off, and much happier with the end result if you do.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

blykins

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 04:06:22 AM »
Every bit of what cjshaker said was pretty much spot on.

I think I’d open the main clearances up....
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
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My427stang

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 06:39:03 AM »
I am also not the one to tell you to tear it back down, another input is bearing wear and whatever it looked like when you tore it down.  If bearing wear was even, and you are just swapping bearings, it'll do as well as it did before.  If it was decent but you turned the crank, odds are also with you.  All I can say though, is if you decide to go to a "modern" .002-.0025, don't do it because Plastigauge told you to.  Get it checked properly.

Two dog turds, one dry, one fresh, step on both and see which one measures "wider" afterwards. 

Plastigauge behaves the same, you may already be at .0025. 
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Falcon67

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 11:05:16 AM »
Tear down?  Well, we've all been here is all I can say...  8)

cjshaker

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2018, 01:53:30 PM »
LOL...now that doesn't get any truer!! Stuff like that can drive you crazy until you check it for the 4th or 5th time.

And sorry Chris, for calling you Kevin in my above post. Momentary brain lapse...
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

shady

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Re: How do my piston ring end gap #'s look?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 05:36:58 PM »
What a cool car! I would be so tempted to leave it as it is. At least until you tire of the look. You will be amazed at the comments you will get from the on-lookers.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
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