Author Topic: 660s on 482?  (Read 5143 times)

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daryl w66

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660s on 482?
« on: July 17, 2018, 11:58:52 PM »
I have a 66 fairlane with a keith craft built 482. when we talked about the engine build he said the 2-660s on top of a dove tunnel wedge would be a good package.this was back a in 2006.took a few years to finish car build. i only drove the car a couple times about 7 years ago.not happy with carbs. in 2013 i took the car to a chassis dyno place and they dialed the carbs in.i run 94 octane fuel.since then i only start it up and run it up temp. and move the car back and forth in my driveway.since i dont start the car very often so what i do is dont touch the gas and turn motor over for about 10 sec.,turn key off,give it 2 pumps and it starts right up,runs great.i back it out  of garage and warm it up.like i say it runs great.after i run it for about 15 mins. i shut if off.no problems.the problem is after i iet it cool down and try to start it back up.it does not want to start back up. i tried not touching the gas pedal and then trying 2 pumps of gas pedal.it just does not start. i am no carb expert. last time i ended up putting gas pedal to floor and it started back up with a quick puff of smoke thru air cleaner. i know i am not to do this because is back fire thru carbs . my mech. friend told me never to do that .when i can get it to start back up it runs great again.i am thinking of changing carbs to make it more reliable. i want to drive my car in summer and not worry if i shut it off can i get it to start again.money is tight now.so is there a trick to starting this motor back up so i can keep these carbs or do i save up and buy 2 different carbs?

carbidemike

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2018, 06:22:58 AM »
I'm sure you have already done this,but make sure the float level is correct.its simple but I am guilty of overlooking it before.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2018, 08:29:44 AM »
Todays gas and carbs don't mix well.   Gaskets and rubber go bad and cause issues, especially when you only drive it very randomly. 

Sounds like float level is a bit high since it is dribbling gas and making it hard to restart.  Could be metering gasket allowing fuel to seep also.  I've found I need to go through the carbs on the wagon every 2-3 yrs to keep them happy.  It gets finicky, hard to start/restart, idles bad.

Both of the hot rods need attention too, though they don't get it enough and they run like it sometimes.
Larry

jayb

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2018, 08:40:12 AM »
How long do you let it cool down, after its been running, before you re-start it?  If you are talking about 5-10 minutes, you may have a fuel system problem, not a carb problem.  I ran into this exact same situation several years ago, with a 750 double pumper Holley.  It turned out that the problem was the fuel was being heated in the carb, and in the fuel lines going up to the carb, while the engine was shut off.  The fuel wasn't moving, and the heat soak from the engine was making it very hot.  The fuel would boil, go through the carb vents into the engine, and flood it.  If this didn't happen, sometimes as soon as I tried to start the car, the fuel in the lines would hit the carb and boil.  Since it was no longer under pressure in the fuel line, as soon as it made it into the float bowl the boiling point of the fuel would drop, so it would boil and spit out of the vents, flooding the engine.  I had this happen on startup, but also after starting, and then running down the road for about 1/8 mile or so; the engine would start to stumble and sometimes stall.

FYI today's fuel is designed to work with fuel injection systems.  Once the fuel hits the injectors, if it vaporizes that's OK, because it's already in the intake manifold.  With a carb, the fuel has to sit in the float bowl before being metered into the engine, and if it boils, it will spit out the carb vents and pour into the engine.  I remember running an experiment with the fuel I was using when I was having this problem; this was 92 octane fuel with 10% ethanol.  I put a small can of the fuel on a hot plate with a thermometer in it, to record the boiling temperature.  The fuel boiled right about 155 degrees Fahrenheit!  Its a lot hotter than that in an engine compartment, with the hood closed.

The solution is a return style fuel system, which is what Ford was using on their last carbureted vehicles, before they went completely to EFI.  The way this works is there is a return line to the gas tank, and the fuel pressure regulator bypasses any fuel that the carburetor doesn't use and returns it to the tank.  This keeps the fuel cool, and helps prevent hot fuel from making it into the carb.

These days I personally would not run a carburetor without a return style fuel system, unless I was running race gas in the car.  By the way, that's a good test to confirm this issue, because race gas has a much higher boiling point than normal pump fuel.  Try getting the fuel level in your tank very low, then add 5 gallons of 110 octane leaded race gas to the tank.  See if the problem remains.  If it is improved or eliminated, going to a return style fuel system is probably going to help.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Falcon67

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 09:31:08 AM »
First off, 660s are race carbs.  They are set up for 1:1 throttle opening with a 4 way shooter in the center on each carb.  So two pumps on the throttle puts a LOT of fuel in the intake.  For general hotrod use, I'd look for something else - even a prepped pair of 1850s (600s) would seem to be OK for pleasure use.  If you are going to run it on the track regularly, then the 660s would be applicable. 

andyf

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2018, 09:51:53 AM »
Having a car that you spent a lot of money on but can't enjoy is no fun. I think you ended up with some race parts on a street car and if you aren't a really experienced tuner, that combo is often fatal to the project. There are lots of abandoned car projects due to the same type of issue. People get talked into cams that are too big or the wrong carb and then the car isn't fun to drive so it just sits.

Dual Holley carbs are going to be a bit tough to get sorted out on anything, especially if there is a large camshaft involved. If you insist on dual Holley carbs for the look then you'll want to talk to someone who has a setup that actually works. Vacuum secondaries is probably the way to go, and the smaller the carbs the better. Dual Edelbrock 500 carbs would be fairly easy to get to work but Ford purists would freak out. Personally I'd use dual throttle bodies on anything I wanted to start, run and drive on a regular basis.

Good luck and don't get too down on yourself. You should be able to sell the 660 carbs for some decent change to a drag racer. You'll need to call around to find someone who can setup dual Holley carbs for a street car. A wideband would be a good investment to make if you try it yourself. It is also a major time investment since the carbs need to come off to make changes and if you have metering plates in the rear then those need to be changed. If you tune it yourself you'll need a decent supply of parts so that is another investment to think about.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 12:25:49 PM »
Jay, my '67 F100 with stock 352/2bbl was HORRIBLE at restart when hot.  It would take forever to get it to fire due to fuel boiling off.  Lots of guys with these trucks would put an electric pump on it to prime the carb again after the fuel evaporated.

Once I put an alum adapter for a 4bbl and used a 750 Holley, it was much better since the heat transfer was greatly reduced.

What was even worse was the optional "carb heater" on these trucks.   It was an alum plate, with heater hoses attached.  Ugh, first thing I removed since I surely didn't need to worry about the carb icing up in the winter.
Larry

e philpott

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 12:42:34 PM »
Tear drop hood helps too , I haven't had any problems with my 2x4 with electric pump and teardrop hood ... the boiling point on fuel is crap now days

daryl w66

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 01:27:14 PM »
hi guys. thanks for all your help. i do not have a return line for the gasline. i know that when i run the car it runs great and stays at 180 degrees after it warms up. but with the hood open you can sure feel the hot heat coming off the motor. i have two fans.1 belt driven on front of motor and 1 electric one in front of rad.it always comes on once the car shuts down and runs for about 10 minutes or so after.i usually let the car sit for about 20 mins or longer before i try again. i know efi would the way to go but i live in bc canada and the dollar diff. makes thinks more expensive.this motor has a large hyd. roller cam-comp cams grind#-3151r/3152b hr112.0. int.633-exh.633.KC dyno came in at 640hp and 615tq.when we did the chassis dyno in victoria,bc in 2013 it ended up at 512hp and 515tq. i just want to street drive this car only.so i want it to start up every time.it has bi/bo close ratio toploader with 4.11 locker out back.from reading everything here i should get the tranny switched to a wide ratio. david key suggested i go with the close ratio when i bought it thru him.i also have cal-tracs with 28x12 mickey thom. out back with 3in. spring kit from crites with their frame connectors.should i change the rear gears to 3.90 or something also along with going to wde ratio trans. for street driving?what about carbs?what other carbs would work with this combo? i have been lurking on your fe site for along time to get all my info for my car.i grew up with the 1 only original fairlane sold in bc in nanaimo right behind my house.i fell in love with this car and i had to have one.i am so close to driving my car now 50 years later. just gotta make it run happy and then i will be happy!Thanks for all your help and any suggestions would be great. ford forever! everybody around here drives old  chevies so i dont have many friends around here.

RJP

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 02:00:27 PM »
Starting and idling your engine is one of the worst things you can do to it especially a freshly built engine. Even though you say it warms up to 180 deg. it still is not under any load that builds heat in the engine that properly heats the oil to the oil's operating temp. Cold oil allows the creation of moisture and by what you are doing it does not let the oil temperature get hot enough to burn off the condensation created by no load/idling. Oil is designed to operate at 190-210 deg/F, 120-140 deg oil will make sludge and acid. Aside from the problems of cold oil and condensation a idling engine will also gas wash the cylinders at the most critical time when the rings have not yet fully seated. The car needs to be driven and not just around the block

Posi67

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 02:40:12 PM »
This right here...


"First off, 660s are race carbs.  They are set up for 1:1 throttle opening with a 4 way shooter in the center on each carb.  So two pumps on the throttle puts a LOT of fuel in the intake.  For general hotrod use, I'd look for something else - even a prepped pair of 1850s (600s) would seem to be OK for pleasure use.  If you are going to run it on the track regularly, then the 660s would be applicable. "

A pair of 600 vac secondary carbs will work just fine. 660's are finicky and the fuel mileage is dismal. On my 454" race motor the 600's were only slightly slower than the 660's so even though you'll give up some power you probably won't notice it on the street and you already have plenty. Check with Carls Ford Parts for a setup and get the proper linkage as well.

As for the trans and rear gear, I'd leave that alone until you get the carbs sorted and some drive time in. You might like it or might not but changing parts at this point seems counter productive.






fryedaddy

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2018, 09:01:53 PM »
i agree with Jay.i had the same problem.when i turned my engine off after a drive,it did not want to start back and when it did it would go a hundred yards or so and stumble but then it would take off and drive normal.put race gas in and it stopped doing that.i found out it was boiling by putting a carb on that has sight windows for fuel level.i could see it boiling through the sight windows.it would boil away.then if i tried to start it,there was no gas in the carb. a electric fuel pump helped because i could let the pump run for a minute before trying to start it.i would bet thats your problem too.
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

cammerfe

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2018, 10:41:46 PM »
To throw more complication into the mix, there are, I guess, two sorts of carburetor pairs that were (are) called 652s. The ones I'm familiar with were used on the dual-plane TP intake manifolds used on the GT40s for LeMans.

You all may remember that Brother Lon and I put a 427 TP in his '67 Mustang in the end of the '67 model year. The short block was bought over the counter at Bill Brown Ford in Livonia. All the upper end came from from the LeMans Race Program, sourced from EEE, and included the heads, manifold, and the carbs and linkage.

Connections between the primaries and secondaries were handled by a roller-equipped 'cam plate' and were not 1-1. The link between the carbs was a simple link bar so that you had both primaries---and then the secondaries---actuated together but not all at the same time. Gas mileage wasn't all that bad, considering that the Mustang was running a race-prepped C6 and a 4.44 Locker rear end. Lon used it as a daily driver for several months.

There were no choke horns in evidence. I spoke to Harold Droste, the Holley employee who was at EEE every day, regarding any necessary changes, and was told that they were 'just fine'. We found that to be the case.

My memory is somewhat hazy regarding some of the details---it's more than 50 years ago, you'll remember. Ultimately, we installed a pair of Holley injectors---the first application of such a pair. I worked with the FI guys at Holley and wrote a several-part series of articles about the project in both Super Ford Magazine and, ultimately, Mustang Illustrated.


KS

Falcon67

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 10:53:13 AM »
Tear drop hood helps too , I haven't had any problems with my 2x4 with electric pump and teardrop hood ... the boiling point on fuel is crap now days

X2 - I switched to using 100% VP or Sunoco 110 in the hot rod and a lot of issues went away.  If I had a picture of the intake ports and head ports after running on 4 parts 91 pump fuel and 1 part 110 you'd think I'd poured Karo syrup down the carbs.  110 straight, all stays clean.  At the cost of $9.50/gallon. 

Beware that fan in front of the radiator.  1) pusher's are 30%+ less efficient than pullers and 2) at driving speeds it the same as putting a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator.  Yes, it will block air flow.  Note this GM factory fan mount/shroud has bleed off ports in it by design because electric fans spinning at a fixed RPM eventually become a restriction.


WerbyFord

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Re: 660s on 482?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2018, 09:53:46 AM »
hi guys. thanks for all your help. i do not have a return line for the gasline. i know that when i run the car it runs great and stays at 180 degrees after it warms up. but with the hood open you can sure feel the hot heat coming off the motor. i have two fans.1 belt driven on front of motor and 1 electric one in front of rad.it always comes on once the car shuts down and runs for about 10 minutes or so after.i usually let the car sit for about 20 mins or longer before i try again. i know efi would the way to go but i live in bc canada and the dollar diff. makes thinks more expensive.this motor has a large hyd. roller cam-comp cams grind#-3151r/3152b hr112.0. int.633-exh.633.KC dyno came in at 640hp and 615tq.when we did the chassis dyno in victoria,bc in 2013 it ended up at 512hp and 515tq. i just want to street drive this car only.so i want it to start up every time.it has bi/bo close ratio toploader with 4.11 locker out back.from reading everything here i should get the tranny switched to a wide ratio. david key suggested i go with the close ratio when i bought it thru him.i also have cal-tracs with 28x12 mickey thom. out back with 3in. spring kit from crites with their frame connectors.should i change the rear gears to 3.90 or something also along with going to wde ratio trans. for street driving?what about carbs?what other carbs would work with this combo? i have been lurking on your fe site for along time to get all my info for my car.i grew up with the 1 only original fairlane sold in bc in nanaimo right behind my house.i fell in love with this car and i had to have one.i am so close to driving my car now 50 years later. just gotta make it run happy and then i will be happy!Thanks for all your help and any suggestions would be great. ford forever! everybody around here drives old  chevies so i dont have many friends around here.


I got this cam info from the clubcobra site - if its the cam you have, at 243-252-112 as a hydraulic I'd say its a LITTLE big for a street car but you have 482cid in a fairly light car so should be liveable.
I'd try the carbs first - either twin 600 Holleys as suggested or even a pair of more maintenance-free Edel/Carter AFB or AVS carbs. As Battlestar said, Holley's like a rebuild every few years especially if the gaskets dry out a lot. The AFB carbs will give away a couple tenths to Holleys but so what - main thing is get it running and enjoyable.

I wouldn't worry about the close ratio - you could probably even run that close ratio and a 3.00 gear with all the inches you have. Even the 4.11s are not an issue for now except it may run hotter on the freeway.

The big problem is those carbs and maybe tuning.
If you get really tired of the dual quads just run any dual-plane 4v intake on there, then your carb choices are unlimited. I often run a big Holley for "Fun" but an autolite or carter/edel carb for daily driving, its about a 15 minute swap including linkage.
- - WerbyFord

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/135698-427-fe-block-question-3.html

Gross valve lift: Intake 0.649 Exhaust 0.633

Duration @ 0.006 Tappet lift Intake 297 Exhaust 318

Valve Timing @ 0.050 Open: Intake 15 Close: BTDC 47 ABDC
Exhaust 64 BBDC 8 ATDC

Specs for cam installed @ 106.0 intake center line.
Intake: Duration @ 0.050 243.0
Lobe Lift 0.3690
Lobe Separation 112.0

Exhaust: Duration @ 0.050 252.0
Lobe Lift 0.3600
Lobe Separation -------


Grind #: FB 13051R/3151R HR112.0
Part #: 33-999-3
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Richard (club cobra guy that posted cam info, not WerbyFord!!!)