Intake Manifold Coin-Flip

[FirstEliminator]

    Hey guys,

   The Colony Park has been on the back burner for a long time. Hopefully I can spend some time on it this year. Would love to have it at the next FE Reunion.
 One thing I've pondered about is which would be a better intake for my application? I have both a Performer RPM and a Streetmaster on hand.
  The engine combo is a 482. I think the compression is about 9.5:1. 
   Heads: cast iron CJ
   Exhaust: C5 long cast headers into 2 1/2" through X-crossover, mufflers, resonators, then out behind the rear wheels.
   Cam: Comp Hyd roller 224/230 @.050, 110 lobe sep
   Not sure on carb or drop-on throttle body EFI
   Trans: C-6 wide ratio
   Convertor: low stall----like RV, may change to stock stall if the low stall taxes the idle too much
   Gear Ratio: 2.80
   Vehicle weight: full size wagon over 4200 lbs.

    Car is a driver. Has working A/C. Want to keep it smooth. Don't want to throw gas out the window with a high stall convertor. Plus, I tow with this car. Originally planned to use a Performer RPM. In attempt to keep the lower stall convertor I wonder if the Streetmaster would have better manners for off-idle torque than the Performer RPM?  This 482 is probably most similar to the 428 CJ 410/425 hp in the Intake Comparo book. Both of these intakes are very close in performance on the 428CJ engine. I believe I remembered reading the dyno couldn't measure below 2500 rpm. Idle to 3000 is where this engine will spend the vast majority of it's life. Any thoughts on which intake would be a better performer below 2500?

  thanks,
     Mark

[WerbyFord]

You have a lot of inches there, but I do know on my 421cid FE I did NOT like the Streetmaster down low, even with a 192-197 vanilla cam. It was a dog below 2500rpm. From 3000 up it was fine but your're saying that's not your main use.

I cant comment on the RPM intake down low yet as I haven't tried mine.

I do know the 428pi intake has very good manners down low, with just about any cam.

On the cam, you know that 224-230-110 cam is going to eat some gas even in a 482. During overlap the gas will go right in and go right back out around town, it will get about 7-8 MPG in REAL CITY driving. That depends where you live of course. There are so few people in Michigan I don't think they know what city driving is any more.

For highway the cam wouldn't matter so much but depends on your main use.

If you really want gas mileage and low end I'd say go with a Performer intake, but that might be a little small for a 482cid. Or a 428pi or iron 428cj intake, and a smaller cam.

Since you have both intakes why not try em both? I'd start with the RPM intake, and if you don't like it try the Streetmaster. They're both good intakes so if unhappy you could swap for another style.

My 64 wagon is 4400 lb with aluminum intake so I bet yours is at least that!

[My427stang]

On my F100 I prefer the Streetmaster due to carb placement.  It allows me to run a tall 14 inch element without hitting a body seam on the cab.  If you have any room issues,  that could be a consideration

As far as performance, the RPM should make more torque due to the longer runners, but they have significantly more volume too.  I haven't seen much difference, but never on a dyno either.

I doubt, you'll notice any significant difference from one to another with your setup.

[Pentroof]

In my opinion, I would sort out the cam & gear ratio combination for the weight first. Do you have that cam already? I think you would be happier with less duration, more lobe separation and gearing somewhere around 3.25.

If towing is a priority for this car, I would define the cam around that. There are a couple sharp dudes that lurk around here that can chime in on that.

On the intake, I'm wondering if your cubes will overcome any low end deficit that the RPM might show on a smaller motor. It might be a nice combo. I'd be interested in Jay's view on that, relative to the experience with the GFEIC.

[blykins]

The cam will be close and you wouldn't want less duration with 482 cubes.  As a matter of fact, I could be talked into a little more duration since the heads are factory CJ heads.  My only gripe is if its an off the shelf cam from Comp it will most likely be noisy because of the lobe design.

If you have both intakes on hand, I would most likely reach for the Streetmaster.  The 482 will provide a lot of velocity for it.

[jayb]

I think that's a really close call, but I'd probably lean towards the Performer RPM.  I think it would be a touch better down in the very low RPM ranges.  But to be honest I'm not sure you'd notice the difference.

And Werby, something else was wrong with your combination if you had poor luck at low RPM with the Streetmaster.  Carb tuning maybe?  My brother's 428 runs like a scalded dog from idle on up with the Streetmaster, and it is pretty close to stock...

[My427stang]

And Werby, something else was wrong with your combination if you had poor luck at low RPM with the Streetmaster.  Carb tuning maybe?  My brother's 428 runs like a scalded dog from idle on up with the Streetmaster, and it is pretty close to stock...

X2

In fact, right now I have a little tight quench 9.4:1 390 in the F100.  216/228 @ .050, and late by my standards at 108 ICL (112 LSA) and it's real happy with a 3310 and a SM.  Years and years ago it was the same with a 270H on 106 and closer to 8:1. 

That's a 4200 lb truck with 32 inch tires and a 3.50

[cammerfe]

OP, you mentioned in passing the possibility of using EFI. From my experience, there's no comparison. There are NO drawbacks to using EFI. I've run the full gamut with carbs, from a one-barrel on a blown MGA to a pair of Holleys and also DCOE Webers. None have come close to the street manners and all-around drivability of the aftermarket throttle-body EFI. Try It---You'll Like It!

KS

[FirstEliminator]

A few years ago, I bought the MSD Atomic EFI kit for a different project---a 79 F-350 crew with a 460 stroked to 545. The project got put on hold for a while, but will hopefully resume in a year. The EFI set-up is still sitting on the shelf along with the 545 parts. The reason I chose the MSD kit was because at the time MSD was the only one that had a stand alone computer that worked with Ford transmissions. The TCM was additional to the EFI set-up, but it plugged right into the EFI controller. I've thought about using this MSD set-up in the wagon and later on rebuying another for the F-350. It even crossed my mind to get an FE to small block adaptor plate to put an E4OD (if it fit) or a 4R70W in the wagon using MSD's TCM. Then I could up the gear to 3.50 or 3.73 without compromising highway speeds.
   

[Joe-JDC]

Has anything been done to the SM?  If it is stock, it will pull very strongly  with those cubic inches, and if it has the plenum modifications, and gasket matched, it will still not flow what the RPM does with a simple gasket match.  The SM in stock configuration will give up at about 5000 rpm with that many cubic inches.  If you have the SM, and will have to buy the RPM, then use the SM and you will be pleasantly surprised, in my opinion.  Joe--JDC

[FirstEliminator]

   I have both intakes. The plenum in the SM has been modified I think, not sure about gasket matching.  The only work done to the RPM is elongating the push rod holes.
 
     Might have to set-up a poll for voting on this one to see which intake to use.

[My427stang]

   I have both intakes. The plenum in the SM has been modified I think, not sure about gasket matching.  The only work done to the RPM is elongating the push rod holes.
 
     Might have to set-up a poll for voting on this one to see which intake to use.

If you are going with a poll, just remember, the carb pad is in a different place.  May not matter for you, but depending on vehicle and air cleaner, you may actually choose for different reasons

My RPM is gasket matched, ported, and likely will out run a SM/SD in my truck, but the new stroker may end up with a ported SD because the air cleaner hits the cab.  Of course, you can run offset air cleaner base and offset stud too if you want.  I just haven't found a combo that I like.

[WerbyFord]

I think that's a really close call, but I'd probably lean towards the Performer RPM.  I think it would be a touch better down in the very low RPM ranges.  But to be honest I'm not sure you'd notice the difference.

And Werby, something else was wrong with your combination if you had poor luck at low RPM with the Streetmaster.  Carb tuning maybe?  My brother's 428 runs like a scalded dog from idle on up with the Streetmaster, and it is pretty close to stock...

Jay,
Ok lets hope this works.
Here is a table of those runs, my own mini-intake-comparo on my big dog (4400 lb) wagon.
OK The attachment looks tiny but just click on it & it gets big. Good enough.

The Streetmaster wasn't really a "dog", it was just a carlength slower than the 428pi intake - lost it down low and never made it back up. The SM ran about heads up with the iron "Z" intake, even though the "Z" intake only had 2 BTC initial timing.

The Streetmaster just "felt" like it had a plug wire off down low - 4 different runs, spacers, timing, that carb runs good on anything. Maybe it wanted big sewer pipe jets, ok I did NOT try that. Ran out of time.

By about 3000 the SM was waking up, and started to howl like a wolf from maybe 3200-4800. It was catching the 428pi by the 1/8 mile but already gave up a carlength.

All in all, this was a real Disneyland engine, and way smaller than 482cid so not an exact comparison to most builds here.   

[My427stang]

A couple thoughts  before seeing the slips

1 - Bad SD, minor vac leak or something hurting it down low (I just don't ever see what you described)
2 - The late ICL of the stock cam was acting funky with the shorter runners
3 - The SD didn't like the Ford carb

However, after seeing the numbers

You are barely over 1% difference in speed and under 1/2% in 1/8 mile ET, and even the 60 foot is under 2%.  That seems to be that would be within the tolerance of measurement.

The last thing I may theorize is that the log manifolds take away any benefit of scavenging, which could require the longer runners to get back a little torque.  However, those numbers sure don't seem that different when looking at the spacer combo that does best

It's odd because I know you are thorough, but my 390 is light switch responsive with the baby cam and a 1 inch open and a SM, and even when it was a painfully deep quench low compression, it behaved very nicely.

As I think aloud, it could be the stock cam, RJP had similar behavior with his truck, and when he swapped to an iron intake got much better mileage.  Maybe the lack of overlap and late installed centerline with a stocker?

[WerbyFord]

A couple thoughts  before seeing the slips

1 - Bad SD, minor vac leak or something hurting it down low (I just don't ever see what you described)
2 - The late ICL of the stock cam was acting funky with the shorter runners
3 - The SD didn't like the Ford carb

However, after seeing the numbers

You are barely over 1% difference in speed and under 1/2% in 1/8 mile ET, and even the 60 foot is under 2%.  That seems to be that would be within the tolerance of measurement.

The last thing I may theorize is that the log manifolds take away any benefit of scavenging, which could require the longer runners to get back a little torque.  However, those numbers sure don't seem that different when looking at the spacer combo that does best

It's odd because I know you are thorough, but my 390 is light switch responsive with the baby cam and a 1 inch open and a SM, and even when it was a painfully deep quench low compression, it behaved very nicely.

As I think aloud, it could be the stock cam, RJP had similar behavior with his truck, and when he swapped to an iron intake got much better mileage.  Maybe the lack of overlap and late installed centerline with a stocker?

1. Could be, but this SM was pulled from a truck we had bought, was running fine. No data on that one, but it was running ok, no leaks of note.
2. I never really thought about that one, could be. I don't run many single planes. Back when they were new, I helped a friend put a SM on his 400M, stock cam, we didn't notice any issues with that. But again didn't clock it against any other intakes.
3. Again that could be - the 4300s tend to "get lean" at higher power and with open headers, but they usually don't complain thru iron manifolds and muffs.
4. One other factor I thought of is maybe the SM didn't like the mismatch to the larger b9ae-b intake head ports. The 428pi and 428cj intakes seem to like that mismatch, one of the things that makes the 428cj run good (else why would Ford use the bigger LR heads with the MR 428cj intake).

This car is pretty consistent - no wheelspin - the 3.00 gear is on purpose (and the big wagon actually is slightly TAIL heavy), so for me, .10 sec in the 1/8 mile, which is about .15 in the 1/4 mile,  is a LOT - I consistently rack those up as "wins". And you could feel it - where it was laying down compared to the 428pi, and then where it started to howl and get up and run.

That's why I suggested to the OP - just try both intakes! Sure its a set of gaskets but you learn so much. Intakes are SO unpredictable. Thanks for all the ideas. That mystery has bugged me for years,