Author Topic: Getting started for Drag Week 2018  (Read 27034 times)

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GJCAT427

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 04:31:21 AM »
Doug, the 427 in my 56 was freshened up when I rebuilt the truck 10 yrs ago. I took it down to a long block and power washed it at the tractor shop down the road. I got it home and blew it out with the air compressor and a long wand air nozzle. Took about 15 minutes to get all the water out and off of it. Reassembled installed and fired up. No problems and you saw it run at Beaver the first yr I went.

Heo

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 09:45:24 AM »
Can you get low or no detergent oil somewhere? Do you know what
oil it had used before? Probably would run fine with the same oil
 I agree with barry  wash away what crud you
can since you tear it down to change gaskets use non detergent oil
run it up to temp and for a while, change oil filter.
 Bring a picknick table and some beverage and something to eat if it starts knocking
have a picknick and call a towtruck :D
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 09:47:24 AM by Heo »



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

cjshaker

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 09:58:24 AM »
I'm not trailering, so I have to have the vehicle to get back home. Unless I pull the cam and lifters and flush out the entire upper block oiling system, I think I could end up with problems of dirt/grit getting into it and causing a bigger issue. I'm considering pulling the intake and heads and just cleaning them up and throwing it back together. At least I don't think I'd have to worry about the cam and lower end that way.

Option 2 would be to pull the 390 that I got off of Blair a couple years ago, which is currently in the dump truck, and throw it in the car. That's probably actually the easiest, best route to take. Only problem with that option is I'd have to pull it back out to put it back in the truck so I can use it for wood this fall/winter, plus it's my tow vehicle to the FERR in the Spring. Once I get back from Drag Week, I have to get into winter mode quick and get wood cut for winter heat.

I'll be pulling the engine down further tonight, then I'll make a more informed choice.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

cjshaker

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 10:02:32 AM »
Heo, I ran conventional 10w-30 in it and it held decent pressure even at idle. I'm kinda curious now what the oil pan and pickup screen look like. I'll find out tonight. I do have a couple cases of non-detergent 30 weight on hand that I use in my old tractor. I had considered that route.

A tow bill back to Ohio, while having to rent a car to do the same is NOT something I want to do. I don't even want to imagine what that would cost! :o
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

mbrunson427

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2018, 11:23:53 AM »
Did a hunt for those headers this weekend, found out they got swap meeted this fall. Sorry, false alarm.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

Heo

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 01:32:30 PM »
Heo, I ran conventional 10w-30 in it and it held decent pressure even at idle. I'm kinda curious now what the oil pan and pickup screen look like. I'll find out tonight. I do have a couple cases of non-detergent 30 weight on hand that I use in my old tractor. I had considered that route.

A tow bill back to Ohio, while having to rent a car to do the same is NOT something I want to do. I don't even want to imagine what that would cost! :o

I think you would be fine with  the non- detergent oil if you dont touch the gunk. its when you begin to disturb it things happen :-\
I have seen engines imported from USA Where it was a cast of gunk of the valvecover inside just the rockers had some space.
Probably an oilchange every solar eclipse ;D. They run fine until the owners pour in some new high quality high-detergent oil
I rebuilt a -67 Cadillac engine that i had to drill out the gunk plugs from the crank. Was a little old ladys daily driver until a friend
bought it imported it and gave it some syntetic oil....after 80 miles it was over, Crank seized up

On the other hand if you swaping all the gaskets... a few bolts more and you have the cam and lifters out...mayby some other cam and
intake on a shelf in the shop and....... ::)

If it starts knocking you have the perfect father and son project, changing rodbearings on the side of the highway ;)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:45:17 PM by Heo »



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

cjshaker

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2018, 08:57:25 AM »
After other commitments, I finally got back on it pretty heavy by taking yesterday off and tearing into it. This is gonna be a quick update, then I'm heading back out because I took today off also.

I decided to tear it down to the short block before making a final decision. Even though the distributor turned easily, I found out that it was stuck and would not come out. I even used the engine hoist to lift the intake, but it didn't help with the distributor. After a half hour with a rubber mallet, it finally came out and I got the intake off. It looked pretty cruddy around the lifter valley pan. At this point, I wasn't expecting things to work out with this engine for Drag Week.





Still wasn't looking good, so I tore the heads off.



First thing I noticed was that it still had an original steel shim head gasket....and what appeared to be stock pistons. I wasn't expecting anything good when I saw that, but when I looked closer, it gave me some hope. There was very little ridge at the top and all the cylinders looked VERY good with no scoring or odd wear. There was a fair amount of dry carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons, but since I never noticed the engine smoke, I'm guessing that the carbon was just normal buildup from the 60k miles showing on the odometer. When I bought the car off of an old friend, there was a discrepancy about the mileage. He thought the car likely had 160k miles, but I wasn't so sure about that. The car just felt too tight and ran too good. More on that in a minute.

I went ahead and pulled the pan for the final look.





This is where my hopes shot up. The bottom end was not full of crud, although there was a fair amount of gunk in the bottom of the pan. The pump screen didn't look bad. I grabbed all the rods and could not get ANY play out of them! The bottom end seemed to be in very good shape. After a good look at the cylinders, the stock pistons and clean bores, the bottom end with no play and what appeared to be stock rod and main bearings, I was convinced that this was indeed an all stock, fairly low mileage engine, and that that 60k was indeed original. It seems that the only thing ever done to the engine was the double row timing chain, and I'm guessing that was only done for preventative measures.

I decided to mic the bores, and was very happy with what I found. I don't have a bore gauge, but I use a depth gauge set that I have. It's harder to use, but with a good touch and some patience, you can get solid readings. After some time measuring, I found that all bores measured right at 4.053, with very little, if any, taper or out of round. In fact I couldn't find anything more than 4.0535. I measured the ridges at the top and they were all at 4.05-4.051. This was indeed a stock bore block, and a very good one at that!



That's when I decided to try and get this thing back together and drive it for Drag Week. So I decided to clean the block the best I could, being extra careful NOT to get any gunk down in the bores or around the cam and oiling system. So I decided to turn the engine upside down and clean everything while it was down, allowing any and all crud to fall to the floor. I plugged all the lifter holes and drain holes and scraped and sprayed the lifter valley, using lots of brake cleaner.



I also did the same with the piston tops and decks. After I was done, well, mostly done, I still have one side of the lifter valley to do, I was pretty happy with how things were turning out. That gave me even more motivation to get this thing back together and give it an honest shot at making the event.





I'm still not sure what I'm going to do with the heads. Either I pop the springs off the original heads and put new umbrella seals on them, temporarily until I get a chance to rebuild them, or I'm thinking about throwing on the C4 heads that I had on the 390 in my old '68 Highboy, which have had hardened exhaust seats put in and are machined for positive type valve seals. They were done 25 years ago, and they have quite a few miles on them, but they are still in good shape.

The downside to switching heads is that the C4's off my Highboy had been milled, which means my pushrods might not be the proper length. Or I could switch to my adjustable rocker set that I used on my Highboy, but that means all new pushrods on the old lifters. At this point I'm leaning towards the old heads with new umbrella seals, just to keep the engine in a state where everything worked together. Still, a replacement head gasket will raise the head a bit over the factory steel shim gasket, so that could make its own issues. Ugh, I hate making decisions like this. I wouldn't have gave something like this a thought when I was a kid. I would have just thrown it together. Not I kinda hate to do stuff like that, but I don't have much choice in this one.

Question for you guys; do you think I should use some sort of sealer on the head gaskets? If so, what should I use?
I've done razor blade cleanups with new head gaskets plenty of times and never had issues, but this is the first time I've run across steel shim gaskets and not had the block remachined. Kinda concerned about a new gasket holding up. What do you guys think?

Also, what is a good thin head gasket to use? I don't want to open up the squish area any more than I have to, so I'd like to know what are some of the thinnest head gaskets that would match the steel shim gasket, which I think was something like .015 if I remember right?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 08:58:56 AM by cjshaker »
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

mbrunson427

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2018, 12:03:00 PM »
I played this same game when putting together the 390 for my dad's Galaxie. Without using a steel shim gasket in this situation, it's hard to get compression up over 9.6:1. Ended up using the Cometic .027 gaskets. They have a specific surface finish that they ask for so I don't believe that will work for you. They make them to order so I don't think you have the time to wait on them anyhow.

Is your best bet to find a set of the same factory style head gaskets? Certainly someone on here has a set of them? Spray some copper stuff on there for good measure.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

Heo

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The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

Heo

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2018, 02:11:51 PM »
How much is the C4 heads milled,? you can shim under the rockerstand
so the pushrods is the right lengt. Is that 2V pistons with the dish?
if so the engine can benefit from the milled heads



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

TimeWarpF100

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2018, 05:39:49 PM »
After other commitments, I finally got back on it pretty heavy by taking yesterday off and tearing into it. This is gonna be a quick update, then I'm heading back out because I took today off also.

I decided to tear it down to the short block before making a final decision. Even though the distributor turned easily, I found out that it was stuck and would not come out. I even used the engine hoist to lift the intake, but it didn't help with the distributor. After a half hour with a rubber mallet, it finally came out and I got the intake off. It looked pretty cruddy around the lifter valley pan. At this point, I wasn't expecting things to work out with this engine for Drag Week.





Still wasn't looking good, so I tore the heads off.



First thing I noticed was that it still had an original steel shim head gasket....and what appeared to be stock pistons. I wasn't expecting anything good when I saw that, but when I looked closer, it gave me some hope. There was very little ridge at the top and all the cylinders looked VERY good with no scoring or odd wear. There was a fair amount of dry carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons, but since I never noticed the engine smoke, I'm guessing that the carbon was just normal buildup from the 60k miles showing on the odometer. When I bought the car off of an old friend, there was a discrepancy about the mileage. He thought the car likely had 160k miles, but I wasn't so sure about that. The car just felt too tight and ran too good. More on that in a minute.

I went ahead and pulled the pan for the final look.





This is where my hopes shot up. The bottom end was not full of crud, although there was a fair amount of gunk in the bottom of the pan. The pump screen didn't look bad. I grabbed all the rods and could not get ANY play out of them! The bottom end seemed to be in very good shape. After a good look at the cylinders, the stock pistons and clean bores, the bottom end with no play and what appeared to be stock rod and main bearings, I was convinced that this was indeed an all stock, fairly low mileage engine, and that that 60k was indeed original. It seems that the only thing ever done to the engine was the double row timing chain, and I'm guessing that was only done for preventative measures.

I decided to mic the bores, and was very happy with what I found. I don't have a bore gauge, but I use a depth gauge set that I have. It's harder to use, but with a good touch and some patience, you can get solid readings. After some time measuring, I found that all bores measured right at 4.053, with very little, if any, taper or out of round. In fact I couldn't find anything more than 4.0535. I measured the ridges at the top and they were all at 4.05-4.051. This was indeed a stock bore block, and a very good one at that!



That's when I decided to try and get this thing back together and drive it for Drag Week. So I decided to clean the block the best I could, being extra careful NOT to get any gunk down in the bores or around the cam and oiling system. So I decided to turn the engine upside down and clean everything while it was down, allowing any and all crud to fall to the floor. I plugged all the lifter holes and drain holes and scraped and sprayed the lifter valley, using lots of brake cleaner.



I also did the same with the piston tops and decks. After I was done, well, mostly done, I still have one side of the lifter valley to do, I was pretty happy with how things were turning out. That gave me even more motivation to get this thing back together and give it an honest shot at making the event.





I'm still not sure what I'm going to do with the heads. Either I pop the springs off the original heads and put new umbrella seals on them, temporarily until I get a chance to rebuild them, or I'm thinking about throwing on the C4 heads that I had on the 390 in my old '68 Highboy, which have had hardened exhaust seats put in and are machined for positive type valve seals. They were done 25 years ago, and they have quite a few miles on them, but they are still in good shape.

The downside to switching heads is that the C4's off my Highboy had been milled, which means my pushrods might not be the proper length. Or I could switch to my adjustable rocker set that I used on my Highboy, but that means all new pushrods on the old lifters. At this point I'm leaning towards the old heads with new umbrella seals, just to keep the engine in a state where everything worked together. Still, a replacement head gasket will raise the head a bit over the factory steel shim gasket, so that could make its own issues. Ugh, I hate making decisions like this. I wouldn't have gave something like this a thought when I was a kid. I would have just thrown it together. Not I kinda hate to do stuff like that, but I don't have much choice in this one.

Question for you guys; do you think I should use some sort of sealer on the head gaskets? If so, what should I use?
I've done razor blade cleanups with new head gaskets plenty of times and never had issues, but this is the first time I've run across steel shim gaskets and not had the block remachined. Kinda concerned about a new gasket holding up. What do you guys think?

Also, what is a good thin head gasket to use? I don't want to open up the squish area any more than I have to, so I'd like to know what are some of the thinnest head gaskets that would match the steel shim gasket, which I think was something like .015 if I remember right?

I would be afraid of the 53 yr old rings. Gotta be at least one broken one already. Add a set of rings and a ball hone call it good. Not worth ruining a good block for the amount of time and $ that would take.

KMcCullah

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2018, 10:38:50 AM »
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/mrg-1132g/overview/make/ford

That's the same head gasket I used when I slapped my 416 together. Didn't dust the decks off either. Even though Mr Gasket recommends putting them on as delivered (suppose to have some kind of sealer on them already) I sprayed them with copper sealer. Got a few thousand miles on it now.
Kevin McCullah


cjshaker

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2018, 07:46:31 AM »
Is that 2V pistons with the dish?
if so the engine can benefit from the milled heads

Heo, not sure, but I believe those are the stock 4 barrel pistons. Everything about the engine is correct, including the C5 intake and Autolite 4100 carb. They appear to have a dish in the pictures, but it's a very small one, not like the ones in most of the old 2 barrel engines I've seen. I'm not an expert on stock set-ups though, so I could be wrong.

I'm going to mock up the cut/rebuilt C4 heads that I have, along with an Edelbrock RPM that I have sitting around. Being cut to offset the thicker gasket, along with the benefits of a blocked heat riser and lighter weight are pushing me in that direction. Once I see how everything is going to fit together, I'll decide if it'll work or if I need to stick with the old heads and intake.

I'm not too concerned about the rings or bearings. There are zero signs of any abnormal wear in any of the cylinders, so I think the rings are still fine. I'm going to limit the RPM's anyway. No sense in thrashing a stock engine. I'm certainly not going to impress anyone with its blazing speed and wheels up launches..lol  I think it's impressive enough that a completely stock, original, 53 year old Galaxie with a big block FE, will be competing in the event anyway. I'm just trying to keep my record of "strictly FE's for Drag Week" alive. 8)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

KMcCullah

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2018, 12:09:55 PM »
I was gonna comment on the possibility of running the milled C4 heads also. But I would do some quick CCin' to make sure I wasn't taking a step backward in compression.

Do you have an old M-57HV oil pump kicking around? With the triple digit temps lately, the hydraulic lifters in my 416 started ticking. Cylinders 1 and 2 were really bad. So I swapped in a used M-57HV for the stocker a few weeks ago. It fixed the ticking, which was making me crazy. But the big thing I noticed, it feels like I picked up maybe 10HP at 5K RPM's. Must be opening the valves a little more I guess. Win-win.

Kevin McCullah


cjshaker

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Re: Getting started for Drag Week 2018
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2018, 01:06:31 PM »
I'm going to be using several parts out of my old 390 that was in my Highboy, including the Melling M-57HV pump, ARP driveshaft, the double roller timing chain, and the valley tin (to save time cleaning). I'll also be using the oil pan that was on the 390 that I bought off of Blair, which has a baffle in it. It wouldn't work in my F-350 due to the drain plug being in the wrong spot, so I switched it out. It will also save time cleaning.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe