Author Topic: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of  (Read 7882 times)

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Thumperbird

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Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« on: June 24, 2018, 11:17:19 AM »
All,

So, you can't make this stuff up.
Went for a cruise last night down the local avenue, back to the 50's is underway here in the Twin Cities.
Get to a light first in line, road is 3 wide, red challenger SRT was pulled up on the right, street slicks, and saw him earlier not afraid to use it.  Matte black wrapped SRT pulls up on the left, we are all sitting there for a bit, long light, the black SRT purges.
There are hundreds of people all around the intersection, typical for this show.  Cell phone cameras came up faster and more frequent than you can imagine.  I knew this was a loss before it even started, I let them go, they went hard for a short bit, I got on it for fun but was less than thrilled with the comparative quickness.

Now I know my 1965 Thunderbird is a heavy boat and my build was never aimed at racing, just a woken up cruiser.
With that said, sure wish I would have had more, just for fun.  Nitrous is not plumbed yet so that is still on the table.  Wide ratio C6 puts me at 3.8 in first, but I'm still at 3000 rpm at 70 with 3.5 final, willing to spend $5k on the right things to maximize the base I have.  Want it to stay a nice cruiser, not thinking I want to launch at 4000 rpm's but maybe?

445 stroker, SCAT crank and H beam rods, moderate hydraulic cam, roller rockers, edelbrock heads, headers, edelbrock dual quad with Holleys, 100hp nitrous (not up yet).  3000 stall which feels high for the street in a heavy car.  The thing seems to hook up pretty well, rigid frame and weight seems to transfer nice load to the back, experiencing some moderate wheel hop at launch.  Low end is soft.

After you're done laughing, I can take the jokes to, what does the collective experience on this website think are some good power adders or efficiency gains i can work in without starting over.

It was the coincidental chance of a lifetime to "surprise" the new car guys and have some fun with the audience and I showed but did not place. 
Thanks.

 

My427stang

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2018, 11:24:11 AM »
Your nitrous should be the best bang for the buck, then learn where it wants to be launched and shifted.  My guess, when you get the nitrous going, you'll want to get into second gear a lot earlier than you'd think. 

I mention this now and then, but on a buddies 440 inch drag Chevelle, we continue to launch lower and shift 1st gear lower, and it keeps going faster.  He tore the rear out of it last year and he hasn't been back to it, but he used to do a 4500 rpm launch and 6500 rpm shifts in all gears, we are down to a 3500 rpm launch, and shift 1-2 at 5500, letting the remaining gears eat, and it keeps getting quicker

However, after that, I'd go gears, then head and intake work, swap cams if it won't match new setup.  I don't know all the details of your engine, but if the Edels aren't ported, there is power there and in the intake

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

WerbyFord

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2018, 11:32:17 AM »
"Cell phone cameras came up faster and more frequent than you can imagine."

That kinda says it all. If you DID have something for them, I'd sure keep it at the strip. Too many cameras. "One" is too many.

You could have had some fun:
Just punch Big Bird. That would get the Mopar kids jumpy and they'd both take off so fast the cops wouldn't even notice your Bird.
But they'd both be in big trouble.

That said:
The kid I sold my 429CJ to wrecked it a couple months later in a street race. The kid my cousin sold his L71 Vette (aka L88) to wrecked it and got hurt pretty bad. Kids today have no common sense at all - it's been bred out, probably even where you live. If you'd encouraged those clowns to race (each other), what if they or somebody got hurt?

I admire the kids I(and even adults) that buy a new Camaro/Mustang/Mopar and then I see it at the dragstrip - cool, that's what they're for. But on the street, I just don't get a car like that. Its no longer a hobby car, its just a wanna-be status symbol.  8)

Out here in CA, now that you can get "new" Black License Plates from DMV (they were used 1963-1969), I see so many black plates on new iron. They look even sillier on imported stuff, like a Porshkee or Beemer. It just says "I wish I had a real one but I don't know how to fix it so I got a new one with a USB port instead". Kinda sad. We are pretty lucky in comparison. :'(

OK where were we?
Is Thumperbird in the GOnkulator database?
Can you post back a build thread?
How fast do you want to go???? ;D

TomP

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2018, 12:09:24 PM »
Forget the "nice cruiser" stuff... this is WAR! Drastic measures needed. The TBird is a heavy car, I think 5 Star could make you a carbon fiber body. You will need a Pro Mod double rail chassis. A 550 cube Cammer with a 14-71 blower and a Lenco.

No purging Fiats need upset you again.  8)

WerbyFord

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2018, 12:29:32 PM »
Forget the "nice cruiser" stuff... this is WAR! Drastic measures needed. The TBird is a heavy car, I think 5 Star could make you a carbon fiber body. You will need a Pro Mod double rail chassis. A 550 cube Cammer with a 14-71 blower and a Lenco.

No purging Fiats need upset you again.  8)

Nah, leave the "NOSS" for the Fast&Furious.
Do this: (68 Galaxie Big Fun)

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328452


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwHtH1uHZU

He runs a big Lima but you could do the same with a "390" for about $12,000 extra.
Pop the hood & show em your gold "THUNDERBIRD" valve covers and all black iron. Just tell em you swapped the carb & air cleaner so it runs better. ;D

FElony

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2018, 05:32:27 PM »
Since it's a cruiser and what you are looking for is stop light shenanigans (0-60), nothing gonna beat gearing. Find the recent thread on AOD behind FE and know that 5.14's will still give that 3.50 final ratio in fourth. By the time you change transmissions, rear, and traction aids you'll be pretty close to your 5k budget.

Thumperbird

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2018, 07:44:47 PM »

I should have made a few more comments:
First, I do not condone street racing, just a little playing around once and a while.
I let them go, was not going to get into it for many reasons including safety and local law.
Werby, not in the Gonkulator i suspect, i will dig up previous thread or post the current full build soon.
Felony I think you summed it up fairly well, just want to play a bit but don't want to lose the easy cruiser feel, I know the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.  It is playful but not quick off the line, heck I'm not sure what the thing should even feel like with 500HP/TQ, may be only generating 450 these days due to tune, not sure yet.

I will look up the AOD thread, pretty big miss on my part, though I am maybe changing my mind about what I want a bit, another new trans and a another new 3rd member is kind of sad.  I like the idea of the wide ratio c6 but could have gone with a little more gear, still though, 3000 RPM's at 70 is really all I ever want to see. 

Just kind of sucked, got the thing restored and running well about a week ago, don't even have it tuned perfect yet or all the bugs worked out, idles mean and go's fairly well but not even close to the same ballpark as those things.

So:

AOD, gears, NOS (not a fan off the line though), higher stall but that is not very streetable, what else?

Thanks.

FElony

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Thumperbird

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2018, 08:09:32 PM »
Build Summary:

1965 Thunderbird, curb weight is 4650, swapped some iron for aluminum up front but also added a few things, ~4500 pounds
445 ci 390
Professional machined block, bearing and piston bores, decks
SCAT crank and H beam rods, balanced, custom Racetec pistons for 10.2:1
Edelbrock aluminum heads and Edelbrock dual quad RPM AIr Gap, port matched, lightly ported - bowls, widened runners a bit, unshrouded the valves and plugs
Morel lifters, Harland Sharp rockers
FPA headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, free flowing
BJ/BK carbs, stock for now outside of #32 squirters, carbs not providing enough fuel yet overall I think
Comp Cams 3031R/3043R HR 110+6 Adv Dur Int 295, Exh 303 Dur .050 Int 233 Exh 241, lobe sep 110, lift Int .563 Exh  .574
MSD pro billet mech. distributor with 6AL, medium silver springs, black bushing, 18 initial 36 total all in by 3000
1.5" tall custom offset carb spacers to fit the Holley's on the Edelbrock, NOS included
1" 4 hole spacers above that
Broader wide ratio C6, appears to be 3100 stall, flashes to 3100 when in 3rd and floored, Hurst ratchet shifter
Effectively adds .3 to first (gets 3.5 to 3.8), .1 to second, 3rd is 1:1 so 3.5 final
It is a 10" converter, trans is running warm, need to review this setup, seems very soft around town
Quick Performance 3.5 truetrac
10" wide 27" tall tires

Current tune - idle is rich, tip in is good if not a little rich, cruise to 50 is good A/F, 50 plus cruise gets lean but not bad, all in seems ok after a very brief lean spot

Again, not looking or expecting to run with the new stuff but certainly could use some more bottom end.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 08:30:39 PM by Thumperbird »

TomP

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2018, 09:45:19 PM »
Any pix of that? I'm interested in what the carbs look like on the Air Gap intake.

Sounds like a pretty nice combination of parts. The weight isn't much more than the Challengers but they are making much more power. Even the 485hp ones (6.1?) are in Net rating, that would be 550 plus the normal way.

Big advantage for the newfangled cars is those 8 speed slushboxes. Not sure adapting an AOD is a good idea any more. Kind of going the way of those adapters to use cassette tapes in your 8 track.
A Ford 6R80 is now able to be mated to an FE. That would be a huge improvement and they handle much more power than the AOD.

Wrong page of that link... try this
http://www.performanceautomatic.com/news/328/New_Blue_Chip_Street_Smart_Packages.html











« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:57:15 PM by TomP »

FElony

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2018, 10:33:42 PM »
Any pix of that? I'm interested in what the carbs look like on the Air Gap intake.

Sounds like a pretty nice combination of parts. The weight isn't much more than the Challengers but they are making much more power. Even the 485hp ones (6.1?) are in Net rating, that would be 550 plus the normal way.

Big advantage for the newfangled cars is those 8 speed slushboxes. Not sure adapting an AOD is a good idea any more. Kind of going the way of those adapters to use cassette tapes in your 8 track.
A Ford 6R80 is now able to be mated to an FE. That would be a huge improvement and they handle much more power than the AOD.

Wrong page of that link... try this
http://www.performanceautomatic.com/news/328/New_Blue_Chip_Street_Smart_Packages.html

This link only has 4R70. Nothing about 6R80.

edit: OK, here's the 6R80 page. Nothing about FE. Ball's in your court.

http://www.performanceautomatic.com/products/ford-racing-transmissions/6r80-transmissions/6r80-street-smart-systems.html
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 10:38:51 PM by FElony »

WerbyFord

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2018, 12:01:58 AM »
Thumper,
Oh, cool on the street race, I could tell you weren't condoning it - just never know who might be reading in the future.

WOW you have a lot of potential in Big Bird.
I went thru the Gonkulator step by step and got your 0-60mph down around 4 flat which is competitive with most of the overpriced new stuff.

Here goes -
Engine - never quite sure what "mild porting" means but I guessed and the Gonk says
Torq 524 at 4000
Powr 514 at 5700
The Gonk likes to shift at 6000. Shifting at 6200 did not go faster.
421 net hp assuming you turn a clutch fan & power steering.

Here is the Gonk timeslip right now but I'll just give 0-60mph and 330ft from then on, since that is where most street action is.

1.96
5.57
8.58 at 82.2
13.37 at 102.2
5.12 0-60mph

So that's
5.12  5.57

First thing I did was make the Bird magically hook up, that just takes out a lot of variables later.
5.04  5.52 Hooked Up
4.84  5.43 cold air if you haven't done that already
4.72  5.36 gear=3.89
4.62  5.31 gear=4.30
4.50  5.26 gear=4.86
4.47  5.25 gear=5.14 best. No gain going steeper
4.29  5.18 3" pipes & muffs. (2.5" is a good size for a 428cj but not much more)
3.65  4.89 spray=100, on at 3200rpm just above stall
So far no major parts replacement yet, but you don't have a freeway car.
You can sure keep up with those kids though.
Oh, I forgot about all those parts that will break right about now...…
gotta feed the Feral for a minute.....
Ok both cats got their food, brush, and treats.

Now back to stall.
At this point the 4000 stall slowed it DOWN - mainly because I'm waiting til just over stall to hit it with the Spray.
So the spray hits sooner with the ~3000 stall vs 4000.
An artifact - but, instead of adding a new converter (and yanking the engine again....) why not just get the NOSS working instead and see how much of the Gonkulator numbers start coming true?
Ok wait the Feral needs more food.

Ok back. So you've left the engine & trans alone, except for tuning.
Now the only major problem is the 5.14 gear.
NOW, instead of getting another converter, go for a fancy new trans.
That's about all I can think of and still keep it streetable.
Final timeslip:
1.67
4.89
7.56 at 91.7
11.90 at 112.6 and 7200rpm
or
12.30 at 95.5 if you just hold 6100rpm after the 1/8 mile and don't overrev it.

3.65 sec 0-60mph  ;D

That way, if you're happy after the 5.14 and the other mods, you know the fancy $$$$ trans will be worth it. Or if you're bored by then just put the 3.50 gear back in, or even 3.00, and have a freeway cruiser.  8)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 12:20:54 AM by WerbyFord »

My427stang

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2018, 05:44:18 AM »
Build Summary:

1965 Thunderbird, curb weight is 4650, swapped some iron for aluminum up front but also added a few things, ~4500 pounds
445 ci 390
Professional machined block, bearing and piston bores, decks
SCAT crank and H beam rods, balanced, custom Racetec pistons for 10.2:1
Edelbrock aluminum heads and Edelbrock dual quad RPM AIr Gap, port matched, lightly ported - bowls, widened runners a bit, unshrouded the valves and plugs
Morel lifters, Harland Sharp rockers
FPA headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, free flowing
BJ/BK carbs, stock for now outside of #32 squirters, carbs not providing enough fuel yet overall I think
Comp Cams 3031R/3043R HR 110+6 Adv Dur Int 295, Exh 303 Dur .050 Int 233 Exh 241, lobe sep 110, lift Int .563 Exh  .574
MSD pro billet mech. distributor with 6AL, medium silver springs, black bushing, 18 initial 36 total all in by 3000
1.5" tall custom offset carb spacers to fit the Holley's on the Edelbrock, NOS included
1" 4 hole spacers above that
Broader wide ratio C6, appears to be 3100 stall, flashes to 3100 when in 3rd and floored, Hurst ratchet shifter
Effectively adds .3 to first (gets 3.5 to 3.8), .1 to second, 3rd is 1:1 so 3.5 final
It is a 10" converter, trans is running warm, need to review this setup, seems very soft around town
Quick Performance 3.5 truetrac
10" wide 27" tall tires

Current tune - idle is rich, tip in is good if not a little rich, cruise to 50 is good A/F, 50 plus cruise gets lean but not bad, all in seems ok after a very brief lean spot

Again, not looking or expecting to run with the new stuff but certainly could use some more bottom end.

Thanks.

I am not sure what the Gonk will show, but I think the car would like a 11:1 ish SLR and juice assuming a 2.72 1st gear.  That would put you at a 4.11 gear.  Make sure you have a timing retard and good fuel system for the nitrous, and let it rip. 

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2018, 06:04:58 AM »
The biggest gain would come from switching those Edelbrock heads out for something that works well......BBM/Survival/TFS, etc.  Picking up 50 cfm would do wonders.
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Thumperbird

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Re: Caught a Bug Last Night Sort of
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2018, 07:20:40 AM »
Thanks for all the info., much appreciated everyone, WerbyFord extra thank you for your time!
I still need to digest everything but here are a few more details and a picture of the engine build in progress.  The adapters plus flanges are a total of 2" tall, there is 1.125" of horizontal offset in the mid-section (1" rise, 1.125" run)

1.  Flex fan
2.  Heads have good valve job, light porting - widened and smoothed runners just a bit, bowl blended/cleaned up, matched to headers and intake, left the floors alone, maybe removed 5cc of material per port, mostly at interfaces to match/blend back, took out about 4cc of material on the bore side un-shrouding
3.  Intake has had mild clean up on all runners all the way through, matched to heads, all edges blended and rounded from the top of the spacer on down, opened up the flange area a bit to match adapters, lots of intake volume, been discussed a bit in prior threads, not sure of overall impact yet
4.  Primary carb is in the rear, carbs face forward, don't let the tilt in the attached image bother you, in a T bird intake carb flanges sit nearly flat
5.  6 psi fuel from Carter mechanical
6.  Not sure what to expect here but at 5500 rpm's things start to get unsteady, valves floating, timing, not enough fuel, or ? but I leave it alone up there for now since new build and still working out lower RPM tune
7.  I think it is starving for air at higher rpm's with the 2 small filters under the scoop, not sure how to remedy that yet

Thanks.