Author Topic: 445 Stroker Build Help  (Read 20241 times)

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Thumperbird

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445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 27, 2017, 07:28:35 PM »
Hello everyone, new to forum, building a 445 stroker and need compression/cam specification advice.
Will use SCAT crank, H beam rods, pistons ?, hydraulic roller cam spec.?
So far, in addition to my own homework, I have engaged several of the well known builders in the US, some frequent this site.  I have gotten a fairly wide range of input on compression target and cam specifications, trying to triangulate on the best approach for my application.  At the end of the day I prefer to know what the lobe profile is specifically so that future changes can be a derivative of my starting point.  Below please find the desired outcome and target automobile setup so far, hoping and looking for feedback anyone is willing to share in collaboration on my project, thank you for your time.

Goal:
500+HP, 500 TQ, all in by 5500 rpm, pump premium, edgy but not too crazy rough idle is good, reasonable idle rpm, reasonably smooth cruiser but of course when I stomp on it from a stop or rolling start I want to get a heavy car up and going quickly with great low end throttle response.  If it pulls hard to 80 mph I will be happy, will likely not see the strip.

Car so far:
1965 Thunderbird (4500 pounds)
390 to be bored 0.030” over and stroked to make a 445
Edelbrock aluminum heads, 72cc (will receive at least port match to intake and exhaust)
Will deck the block to maximize quench
Edelbrock RPM Air Gap dual quad intake
BJ/BK carbs (custom 1” rise/run offset spacers to enable mounting (forward) on Edelbrock manifold, adds open plenum volume just above manifold carb flanges)
Another 1” of 4 hole spacer to set hood scoop height correctly (adds some more plenum volume)
½” nitrous plates (wet)
MSD 6AL ignition and distributor
Harland Sharp roller rockers
Morel lifters
Carter fuel pump
Melling oil pump
FPA headers (will be 2.5” true dual exhaust)
100 to 200 HP nitrous capability (not to really influence design other than H rods maybe)
Broader wide ratio C6 (very firm shifting) with 2600 to 3000RPM stall convertor
Quick Performance 3.5 ratio True Trac (with wide ratio trans. 1st gear is 3.8:1, 2nd 3.6)
27” tires
Electric vacuum pump (not too worried about engine vacuum)

What do you guys think for compression target?  Flat top or dished pistons?
Cam specification, lift, duration, lobe profile, LSA, IDL, dual profile?
Specific part # recommendations welcome as well.

Thanks all!

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 08:30:11 PM »
Danny finally get those spacers turned out?  sweeeeeet

I am interested to see you fit that intake and a 1inch spacer under a tbird hood
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 10:46:24 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

chilly460

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 11:29:18 AM »
I'd stick to around 9.5:1 compression since you're not looking to wring every bit of power out of the combo, and that should keep things more forgiving as far as detonation for a street car.  That would necessitate a dished piston.  HP goals look attainable but would be helped quite a bit by at least some bowl cleanup and valve job on those Edelbrocks. 

scott foxwell

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 11:38:38 AM »
Thumperbird...sent you a message.

cammerfe

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 12:34:44 PM »
I'd stick to around 9.5:1 compression since you're not looking to wring every bit of power out of the combo, and that should keep things more forgiving as far as detonation for a street car.  That would necessitate a dished piston.  HP goals look attainable but would be helped quite a bit by at least some bowl cleanup and valve job on those Edelbrocks.

I'd agree if the OP were to be using iron heads. The aluminum heads should be forgiving enough to not cause any problems, due to the extra heat conduction of the aluminum. (I'm basing this comment on the gas available in the Detroit Metro area. 93 ROM is available and even 94 is easily enough found. Just takes a little looking.

KS

chilly460

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 02:24:50 PM »
Has anyone ever done a good test to prove or debunk the "rule of thumb" that aluminum heads can handle more compression?  I just don't see it, once the chamber is heated, wouldn't it be controlled by transfer to the coolant? How much cooler is the aluminum chamber and how does that transfer to pre-ignition tolerance?  I know this is one of those "universal" truths that gets thrown around, but many of these have been debunked over time.  Not saying it's not true if people have experience with a good apples to apples comparison, but my suspicion is this tolerance for higher compression is a trend towards aluminum heads being somewhat more modern with a better chamber, and generally being on high performance rebuilds with larger cams and attention to quench that makes them less prone to detonate. 

Not what I'd call "definitive" as it's not in a vehicle, but one article that looks at the subject

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0602-iron-versus-aluminum-cylinder-heads-test/

Thumperbird

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 03:10:43 PM »
Thanks all. 
Carb. spacers are my own design.
Hood has a hole, scoop sits above, just for fun.
Anyone else have some more specifics on cam #'s and compression?
Leaning towards at least 10:1 for compression, I can find 93 octane.
One of my bigger concerns is extra plenum volume due o spacers, how do I make this behave like regular RPM dual plane at lower rpm's?
Thanks.

scott foxwell

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2017, 03:43:09 PM »
Thanks all. 
Carb. spacers are my own design.
Hood has a hole, scoop sits above, just for fun.
Anyone else have some more specifics on cam #'s and compression?
Leaning towards at least 10:1 for compression, I can find 93 octane.
One of my bigger concerns is extra plenum volume due o spacers, how do I make this behave like regular RPM dual plane at lower rpm's?
Thanks.
Plenum volume won't hurt anything and even though you're technically adding volume, it's not in an area that's going to make a lot of difference, especially on a dual plane.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:47:20 PM by scott foxwell »

scott foxwell

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 03:45:02 PM »
Has anyone ever done a good test to prove or debunk the "rule of thumb" that aluminum heads can handle more compression?  I just don't see it, once the chamber is heated, wouldn't it be controlled by transfer to the coolant? How much cooler is the aluminum chamber and how does that transfer to pre-ignition tolerance?  I know this is one of those "universal" truths that gets thrown around, but many of these have been debunked over time.  Not saying it's not true if people have experience with a good apples to apples comparison, but my suspicion is this tolerance for higher compression is a trend towards aluminum heads being somewhat more modern with a better chamber, and generally being on high performance rebuilds with larger cams and attention to quench that makes them less prone to detonate. 

Not what I'd call "definitive" as it's not in a vehicle, but one article that looks at the subject

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0602-iron-versus-aluminum-cylinder-heads-test/
The biggest advantage aluminum heads usually have is the chamber is a more modern, more efficienet design. Alum does help with reducing hot spots, but that's a pre-ignition thing, not detonation. Two different animals. Apples to apples as far as chamber design and shape, aluminum heads are really not any less prone to detonation because they're aluminum.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:47:00 PM by scott foxwell »

My427stang

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 07:25:27 PM »
I'll throw in on this build, as it is pretty close to the approach I took with my 445 truck, minus the juice (although the truck has swallowed plenty in my early years)

I'll speak to the gorilla in the room first, 200 hp of nitrous is a lot, I am not sure I'd feed it that much, but if you do, you likely need a dedicated fuel supply, an ability to retard the timing, and keep in mind, you are seriously pushing the limits of a 390 block, it may split or crack.  I have run bottles and bottles of nitrous through stock block 351s and 390s in younger days at the 100-150 hp range, but that much is pretty serious unless you 2 stage it, keep timing early and fuel plentiful, and even with that, I am not confident those cylinders or the mains will hold their shape if you really put that much juice on top of a 500+ hp build. Just sayin, and I used to love the stuff....

For the rest of the build, the plan looks good for a street 445 and should be faster than that bird should go, I'd say in the low-mid 230's for intake duration, more on the exhaust, especially if there will be spray.  On FEs, we have found a little lazier ramp does good, even when magazines say they dont :)  I think a hyd roller with 290 intake/300+ degrees exhaust duration is reasonable and will tolerate a little more compression, you'd have to look at intake centers, but my guess is you can go pretty early if you stay around 10-10.25:1.  It'll be real strong, REAL strong and a common 110 LSA would have about 75 degrees of overlap should have some nice chop.  If you want to spend more money, spend it on the heads, that's where the power is.....

FYI It's not far from my combo in the truck but I have a little more head, but maybe less intake with a ported RPM and a 1000 Holley. 

What I really do NOT like is the combination of the low first gear and the loose converter, I'd stay under 2800 with a reputable converter company that builds it for YOUR combo, because it's heavy and torquey which will drive a bargain converter higher and this build doesn't need it  PLUS your wide ratio tranny is likely too deep, 3.5 X 3.8 = 13.3, too much, especially with the multiplication of the converter.  I would run a stock gear set unless you are running 30 inch tall tires.

Good luck, certainly sounds like a crazy bird!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 07:27:22 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
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Thumperbird

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 08:17:12 PM »
Thanks for "throw in", much appreciated, making a spreadsheet to compile input on cam and compression.
I was not very clear on the trans. in my post, C6 first gear standard ratio is 2.45, the wide ratio first gear is 2.75 so I just added the .3 uptick to the 3.5 rear to get to 3.8 effective ratio.  The idea is that it will still go down the highway at a reasonable RPM since 3rd is 1:1 with 3.5 rear end.  Broader new what the build was when he spec'd the tranny, I will ask him for more details.
Will take it easy on the nitrous, it is mostly just for fun, I can set a shot as low as 75 per plate I think.
Since two carbs and two plates, is the nitrous shot HP additive?
New brake components all around and dual master cylinder so should be able to stop it.
Thanks again to all and keep the info. coming please!

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 08:34:49 PM »
Carb. spacers are my own design.
Hood has a hole, scoop sits above, just for fun.


sweet.  I'm dying to see pictures of this when it's all done.  Sounds super cool.  Good luck

blykins

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 08:40:27 PM »
13.5:1 compression, 270/280 @ .050", 106 LSA, .800" lift. 
Brent Lykins
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 08:43:58 PM »
13.5:1 compression, 270/280 @ .050", 106 LSA, .800" lift.
idle like a taxi cab......

jayb

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 08:52:54 PM »
LOL ;D

I'd be looking at about 10.5:1 static, and pick a cam to give about 8.35:1 dynamic.  Then get the heads ported, shoot for around 300 cfm at 0.700" lift.  No way you'll get an honest 500 HP out of that engine with unported heads and a flat tappet cam around 230-235@0.050".  Not that it wouldn't run well like that, but you won't make your horsepower goal.  Torque goal you could make that way, though.  Here's a link to the 390 stroker I did for Car Craft several years back; it made 500/500, but the cam was 260@0.050":

http://www.fepower.net/Articles/CCFE.pdf

The two nitrous plates will be additive.  I agree with Ross, I wouldn't go any more than 75HP per plate...

« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 09:29:54 PM by jayb »
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