Author Topic: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel  (Read 23703 times)

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scott foxwell

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2017, 09:11:42 AM »
We've learned that weight on the lifter side of the ocker is far less a concern than system rigidity. The last thing you need in a pushrod valve train is another spring in the system which is essentially what a "weak" pushrod becomes. I would never put a performance FE back together with the stock dia. pushrods. It's pretty hard to run "too big" of a pushrod and cross sectional diameter always trumps wall thickness. Look at the cup guys running way more lift than anything discussed here at 9000rpm for 500 mi...with 80# seat pressure. Yes, their stuff is developed on a spintron but none the less..."intuitively" throwing more spring pressure at a system is not always the best solution. They have .500"+ dia. pushrods with that 80# seat pressure. And they're short. VERY rigid.
One other thing to consider...I keep hearing comments about the spring pressure needed with a solid roller, yet with a hyd. roller's much heavier lifter, we get away with less spring pressure. It's the lobe that dictates the spring pressure, so if you have a very mild solid roller...something comparable to a hyd roller only with a lash ramp, then the spring pressures don't need to be anything unreasonable (for those of you who are adverse to a hyd roller, but willing to go solid). Finally, don't be afraid of a little spring pressure. While yes, you can usually get away with less, this is an area where a little more is not a bad thing. It's way better to have more than enough, than less than enough. Weak springs is the kiss of death in any valve train, especially a pushrod design. Sprig pressure is what keeps things under control, and it's when we lose control is when all the damage and breaking takes place.
Just some of my thoughts on the subject.

Falcon67

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2017, 11:28:08 AM »
Echo.  The hydro flat in my 302 has dual springs, 130 lbs seat/400 over the nose which is a bit more than normal for a flat hydro.  And why I like to run 3/8 pushrods in my 351Cs.  A bit on the fat side is OK.

Barry_R

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2017, 12:58:50 PM »
Good point on the pushrods.  Few years ago I swung through Charlotte and hit some NASCAR shops.  Obviously the new engines they utilize are clean slate engineering, so the cam tunnel is way up in the block to shorten the pushrods.  I was surprised how big they were, though, even being that short.  My thought was they'd run as small a pushrod as possible to knock weight out of the valvetrain but the guide said the tradeoff for stiffness was worth it.  Obvously running 9000rpm for long distance changes the requirements, but the theory stuck in my head.

And I still get guys that want to run shell lifters - pushrods ends up even longer.....

plovett

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2017, 11:51:53 AM »
Just FYI if you're interested.  I posted this question on Speedtalk. 

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51713

Brent, feel free to disagree.  Or feel free to disagree that you are disagreeing.   ;D

paulie

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2017, 04:12:18 PM »
I'm holding firm on my previous thoughts.  It's all about the combination that the cam is in.   Nobody is looking at it like that, everyone is zoomed in on acceleration rates. 

I do agree with Mike Jones about Vizard though....
Brent Lykins
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blykins

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2017, 04:57:37 PM »
From Mike Jones....

"There are multiple variables, that effect the advantage of going to a roller.
Duration, lift, tappet diameter, base circle diameter, available spring rates, Engine RPM.

You can't just say, the advantage will be bigger, with more duration."

Looks like he and I agree.
Brent Lykins
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plovett

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2017, 05:09:47 PM »
From Mike Jones....

"There are multiple variables, that effect the advantage of going to a roller.
Duration, lift, tappet diameter, base circle diameter, available spring rates, Engine RPM.

You can't just say, the advantage will be bigger, with more duration."

Looks like he and I agree.

See how easy that was?  I read it all of course, Brent.  However, he was talking about extreme examples as I read it.  And that was after he said that a roller is (can be) always better.   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 05:15:26 PM by plovett »

blykins

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2017, 05:35:58 PM »
Easy?   I've been saying the same thing for the past 7 pages.   :o

"Always" or "never" are words that shouldn't be used.   Can be, yes.  Always, absolutely not. 
Brent Lykins
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plovett

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2017, 05:50:04 PM »
Oh my gosh.    Okay, you're right, Brent.  I didn't understand that different cam types can be ground in different ways.  I think I finally got it. 

blykins

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2017, 05:55:23 PM »
I'm not following you man.  I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I'm just not understanding you. 

Your initial premise was that there was a duration where a roller cam surpassed a flat tappet.....right?

Brent Lykins
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scott foxwell

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2017, 06:25:00 PM »
Roller vs flat tappet...roller always wins. There are three reasons to run a flat tappet...1) you just feel like it, 2) you're either too cheap, or too stubborn to run a roller, or 3) you're racing in a rules limited class that requires one.

blykins

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2017, 06:32:01 PM »
There seems to be about 17 different arguments in this thread and I can’t keep track of any of it.

Y’all have fun arguing wirh each other.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
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plovett

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2017, 10:28:51 AM »
I'm not following you man.  I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I'm just not understanding you. 

Your initial premise was that there was a duration where a roller cam surpassed a flat tappet.....right?

Kinda.  Not exactly.  You've worn me out.  No worries.  Cant talk any more...........must....... go.......drink........whiskey. 

machoneman

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2017, 10:52:14 AM »
Good point on the pushrods.  Few years ago I swung through Charlotte and hit some NASCAR shops.  Obviously the new engines they utilize are clean slate engineering, so the cam tunnel is way up in the block to shorten the pushrods.  I was surprised how big they were, though, even being that short.  My thought was they'd run as small a pushrod as possible to knock weight out of the valvetrain but the guide said the tradeoff for stiffness was worth it.  Obvously running 9000rpm for long distance changes the requirements, but the theory stuck in my head.

And I still get guys that want to run shell lifters - pushrods ends up even longer.....

I hear you Barry on the 'old school' shells and long azz pushrods.

But I wonder, if they are running mild cams, even hotter, old, slow ramp, low spring pressure NASCAR-type cams, if it makes much difference in mild to warm builds. Obviously this is a much different animal with today's fast acceleration ramps and very high flat tappet spring pressures. But admittedly it's a tad foolish today to use that old stuff when so many better alternatives for the FE exist.   

Btw, it makes me wonder what Ford used in 1967 for the NASCAR-sourced tunnel port 427's used in the the world-beating GT-40 Mark IV's that so convincingly won LeMans. Anybody here know? 
Bob Maag

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Re: Roller vs. Flat-Tappet Cams! - Engine Masters Ep. 16 Motor Trend Channel
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2017, 03:09:16 PM »
A shell lifter actually is very light, and mechanically the cup for the pushrod puts a better angle on the pushrod to rocker arm.  The longer pushrod and shell lifter is not heavier than a solid lifter and a shorter pushrod.  I personally like the shell lifters when I ran a solid camshaft in my FE.  Never had an issue with them or lost either a lifter or pushrod when buzzing my 427 to 7600 rpm nearly every pass down the 1/4 mile.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500