Searching for a cam

[scott foxwell]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

No, and you know that's not the case but you're mistaken about what he does. He designs the lobe and has the cam ground either to his design or to a lobe in a library that closest matches his design. He has his own software for lobe design. One reason a lot of guys come to him is that he can design lobes for oddball engines where there is no option. Now we're doing diesels and have a cylinder head (my port program) and cam package (his design) for the Duramax, three of the Fords and the Cummins. He has the only core available for one of the engines (not sure which one) and all the lobes are 100% his design and like I said, he's done plenty of FE's.
That's pretty much all I have to say.

[blykins]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

...or to a lobe in a library that closest matches his design.

Which is essentially what I was saying earlier.   

A lot of us choose camshafts that way.  Again, I think you may underestimate a lot of the builders on this forum, but dealing with the same engine over and over allows us to try different things on the dyno.  We are not NAPA machine shop rebuilders here.  That involves a lot of A-B tests, or even building the same combination over and over, but changing one part or spec to see the outcome.   I will say that I've only used one off-the-shelf camshaft to my knowledge in all the years that I've been building engines.  The others have been custom grinds from Bullet, Comp, Lunati, or Crane, and each lobe has been chosen carefully after looking very closely at the entirety of engine specs.  I am not a camshaft designer.  I am a camshaft "spec'er".  I do know a few guys who can take a set of differential equations and turn them into a lobe design and those guys are on a different level....Mike Jones, Harold Brookshire, etc. 

The camshaft that Chris gave me to try for my 351C pet project had Bullet lobes on it.  It was easy to cross reference them from his cam card that he had typed out to Bullet's lobe catalog.   I know Bullet has had some "employee rearranging" lately, so he may not use Bullet now, but the camshaft he sent me was indeed picked from the Bullet lobe catalog. 

I am not at all trying to detract from Chris' reputation.  He was extremely fair with me and even though he charged me pretty heftily up front, he left me with the clause that I could return it with a refund if I wasn't happy with it.  I ended up returning the camshaft to him since his choice was 28 peak hp and 9 average horsepower down from the camshaft I had ground.  Peaks were within 250 rpm of each other.  He accepted it back and refunded me, no questions asked.   Commendable. 

We've kinda gone a long way around to get to this point, but my underlying theme in this thread (and a few others) has been that it's often better to ask an engine builder who has extensive experience in one particular engine family for a camshaft recommendation on a camshaft. 

[Barry_R]

A cam "designer" sits down with some 4th derivative equations and mathematically designs lobes around position, velocity, acceleration, and jerk. 

I have met a few of those folks.  Among those were Brookshire, Hubbard, Crane, Godbold and of course Isky.  Without exception they seem to be an interesting breed.  One "foot" planted in the mathematical world and the other in automotive.  The dreams they create on paper - or keyboard - must then be replicated in alloy.  Previously they were limited by the constraints of a cam grinding machine, but now they can use a Landis CNC to make stuff that was nearly ungrindable back in the day.  With a focus on low volume and development, not many places have those, and outside of Comp they are often not household names (Andrews, LSM, OE suppliers, etc).

Perhaps the only tidbit I have gained regarding FE camshaft selection over the past few decades is that there exist no correct or perfect cam - only those which are closer or further away from the ideal.  Every professional race team I have visited has a collection of sticks - some very expensive - that are shelved awaiting another opportunity as the rest of the combination evolves.  Yet race selection is an area where a winner can be more easily decided based on dyno and track performance.  On a street build the other variables of vehicle and perception mean that "cam A" is too wild for a certain customer, and too timid for another - yet both of them are correct.

[scott foxwell]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

...or to a lobe in a library that closest matches his design.

Which is essentially what I was saying earlier.   

A lot of us choose camshafts that way.  Again, I think you may underestimate a lot of the builders on this forum, but dealing with the same engine over and over allows us to try different things on the dyno.  We are not NAPA machine shop rebuilders here.  That involves a lot of A-B tests, or even building the same combination over and over, but changing one part or spec to see the outcome.   I will say that I've only used one off-the-shelf camshaft to my knowledge in all the years that I've been building engines.  The others have been custom grinds from Bullet, Comp, Lunati, or Crane, and each lobe has been chosen carefully after looking very closely at the entirety of engine specs.  I am not a camshaft designer.  I am a camshaft "spec'er".  I do know a few guys who can take a set of differential equations and turn them into a lobe design and those guys are on a different level....Mike Jones, Harold Brookshire, etc. 

The camshaft that Chris gave me to try for my 351C pet project had Bullet lobes on it.  It was easy to cross reference them from his cam card that he had typed out to Bullet's lobe catalog.   I know Bullet has had some "employee rearranging" lately, so he may not use Bullet now, but the camshaft he sent me was indeed picked from the Bullet lobe catalog. 

I am not at all trying to detract from Chris' reputation.  He was extremely fair with me and even though he charged me pretty heftily up front, he left me with the clause that I could return it with a refund if I wasn't happy with it.  I ended up returning the camshaft to him since his choice was 28 peak hp and 9 average horsepower down from the camshaft I had ground.  Peaks were within 250 rpm of each other.  He accepted it back and refunded me, no questions asked.   Commendable. 

We've kinda gone a long way around to get to this point, but my underlying theme in this thread (and a few others) has been that it's often better to ask an engine builder who has extensive experience in one particular engine family for a camshaft recommendation on a camshaft.

What part of "He designs the lobe" do you not understand? He does a lot of cams where there is no catalog to "pick" from, has the master created, and owns the lobe. The diesel stuff is a perfect example.
I do not underestimate anyone. Just get a little tired of the whole FE is somehow "special" mentality. It's an engine. It has peculiarities just like any other engine. It has areas that need focus just like any other engine but for a good engine builder those areas and peculiarities should become obvious when building the engine. Knowing the needs and quirks of an FE doesn't make anyone here "better" than anyone else, and that's how many of you come across, like you know some special engine building secrets that NO one else knows. Big fish in a really really small pond mentality. I offer a suggestion for a source for a custom cam from someone who KNOWS FE's, and this is the crap it leads to.
Who needs it.
As far as your results with Chris, like I told you in your PM, that's not something I can really speak to. My guess is, knowing Chris and how most of these types of stories work out, there's more to the story and the cam he sold you probably did exactly what it was supposed to. Besides, when I look at Chris' track record and how well his cams typically perform, maybe he did miss one. I'm sure it happens to everyone. Maybe you missed on some of the information you gave him. Who knows. It's hardly a consensus. You seem to jump to a lot of unfounded conclusions and I can tell you you're 100% wrong about Chris.
Now, I'm done with this subject.

[scott foxwell]

A cam "designer" sits down with some 4th derivative equations and mathematically designs lobes around position, velocity, acceleration, and jerk. 

I have met a few of those folks.  Among those were Brookshire, Hubbard, Crane, Godbold and of course Isky.  Without exception they seem to be an interesting breed.  One "foot" planted in the mathematical world and the other in automotive.  The dreams they create on paper - or keyboard - must then be replicated in alloy.  Previously they were limited by the constraints of a cam grinding machine, but now they can use a Landis CNC to make stuff that was nearly ungrindable back in the day.  With a focus on low volume and development, not many places have those, and outside of Comp they are often not household names (Andrews, LSM, OE suppliers, etc). I would say a cam is "correct" if it gives the end user the results he was looking for.

Perhaps the only tidbit I have gained regarding FE camshaft selection over the past few decades is that there exist no correct or perfect cam - only those which are closer or further away from the ideal.  Every professional race team I have visited has a collection of sticks - some very expensive - that are shelved awaiting another opportunity as the rest of the combination evolves.  Yet race selection is an area where a winner can be more easily decided based on dyno and track performance.  On a street build the other variables of vehicle and perception mean that "cam A" is too wild for a certain customer, and too timid for another - yet both of them are correct.

I'd say a cam is correct if it gives the customer the desired results.

[blykins]

I think Chris would be a little better off if he didn't have you for a PR rep.  It seems like your personality conflicts with a lot of others. 

I do agree with you in the fact that each engine does present its own peculiarities.  However, there isn't an engine builder alive that has nailed the perfect combo on the first shot, and most often, a cam "designer" isn't in touch enough with the customer to get valuable feedback.  As a result, cam specs don't evolve, and you have grinders recommending the same cam specs as they did 50 years ago.  The guys who see 100's of engines from the same family are the ones who really push through some of the technical mumbo-jumbo and make improvements. 

Your common response to anyone who is looking for a camshaft on any of the forums is always a knee-jerk "Call Chris Straub."  In my own specific case, he missed the boat by almost 30 hp (after telling me that his cam would be 30 hp OVER mine) and I think that if he would have had more experience with a Cleveland 4V cylinder head, the outcome may have been a little different.   

There was not more to the story as you suggested and I'd be glad to copy the email that I sent Chris into this thread to show you the specs that I sent him.  It was a rather extensive list of specifications and he didn't ask for anything more.  The only caveat was that he asked where I wanted the peak hp rpm to be and I told him that I would like for it to be between 7000-7500.  Obviously the heads worked a little better than expected as both cams peaked between 7800-8000.  And just to answer the question in advance, at 7000 rpm his cam made 567 hp vs. my cam's 582.  At 7500 his cam made 584 vs. my cam's 602.  I tried to be as fair as I could possibly be, even favoring the pushrod geometry towards Chris' cam and ordering pushrods as such, since the base circle was .030" smaller.   

And that puts me back to my original statement....it's better to call someone who has extensive experience with a particular family. 

Chris may nail the next 4 in a row on an A-B dyno test.  However, based on my experience, it would be hard for me to justify spending the money and spending a day on the dyno swapping cams to find out. 

[jayb]

Let's get back on topic with this thread, please...

[garyv]

Bushwackr my advice is to listen to and support the builders that contribute a lot of time and knowledge to our FE forums. Barry, Blair and Brent are all extremely capable of advising you on a proper cam for your build.  Just give them the information they need such as bore, stroke, heads, flow if known, valve size, etc and intended use. I would put any of the 3's knowledge against others out there.
If you just want a cam to match that one call Ken at Oregon Cams and he can grind it for you. If you want a custom cam that will work better give one of these guys a call.
I'll leave it at that.


garyv

[fryedaddy]

i dont know that much about cams,but when the big boys speak,i listen.my next cam will definitely be chosen from advice of the big boys.if i can get it

[bushwackr]

I Thank all of you for the help.  I'm going to call Howards and Schneider's for a recommendation.      I have a set of c6ae-r heads and matching intake to use on it , compression will be a touch higher than 9.5:1.  It will be running a summit efi and converted dist with 6al box backed by 3.50 rear and a c6 . Any Recommendation for a cam.    I talked to 2 shops they tell me a cam similar to a 268 comp will run good. Well I hated that cam in a 388 sbc so I don't know how I would like it in a 390

[bushwackr]

Oh ya , just the truck will be just a fun driver, 5000 rpm tops, 30 over stock stroke

[scott foxwell]

I have a Straub custom ground hyd roller for sale ground for a basically stock 390. I upped the anti on my build and had another cam ground so this one is available. New in the box. It's in the private classifieds.