Author Topic: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern  (Read 18294 times)

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mbrunson427

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Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« on: August 23, 2017, 09:11:03 AM »
I've been searching this and there are quite a few discussions on different forums, but none specifically related to the FE. From the reading I've done, there's a pretty simple explanation for why people use dual pattern cams; to help the engine make up for unfavorable exhaust-side characteristics.

I had a cam ground by Elgin Cams for my 428 project. I sent him flow numbers for the BBM heads and a load of information about how the car was honestly going to be driven. He decided to grind me a single pattern cam. I've read some suggestions that a single pattern cam should help with low-mid range torque? In my info to him, I explained that it would be a street car and needed to have good vacuum for power brakes and good torque for stoplight to stoplight driving with the manual transmission.

Regardless, I wont be changing the cam to anything different, just trying to understand the theory in all this. Anyone with experience, chime in and teach me something!
Mike Brunson
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blykins

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 09:35:12 AM »
We could spend a few days on this subject, but I'll throw this out:

I rarely use a single pattern camshaft because all FE heads need at least a few degrees of split to help out a less than optimal exhaust side flow.  Some cylinder heads are really good as far as exhaust flow goes, including your BBM heads, the Survival heads, CNC ported Edelbrocks, etc.  These heads will usually be around a 70-75% ratio and I normally use a 2-6° split for most street engines.  Some heads have very poor exhaust flow, like a factory Tunnel Port head for example.  I have used 8-12° splits in the past for similar combinations. 

A few side points:

1.  Adding exhaust duration increases overlap.  This can either help you or hurt you.  If you have a large volume intake port (think 4V Cleveland or FE Tunnel Port), extra exhaust duration (overlap) will help scavenge the intake side and help intake port velocity.  A lot of overlap, however, can prove to not be desirable for a street engine...low vacuum, rowdier idle, etc. 

2.  It all depends on the particular engine that you're dealing with at the time.  There are tons of variables in an engine build and its application, which can affect the cam choice.  It's really difficult to make ballpark statements. 

3.  A single pattern cam won't necessarily help with low-mid range hp or torque.  Again, there's too many variables to make a broad statement like that, and it's entirely possible to grind a dual pattern cam that will increase hp/torque in the low-mid range, increase vacuum, increase street manners, etc.  It just depends on the application and lobes that are chosen.

4.  Most cam grinders don't know the engine they're grinding for on an intimate basis.   Engine builders do.  I cringe when someone tells me that they called up a cam tech line and ordered a cam for an FE, Cleveland, etc.  Most guys that answer the phone have never seen an FE engine, much less built one, or built 100's of them.  It's very easy for a cam grinder to grind a cam, send it out, and the end-user be happy with it, solely on the standpoint that they haven't tried anything else as a comparison.  When you get to try 100 cams, you get to zero in on what works and what doesn't.  The guy on the FE forum who's complaining about a noisy camshaft will probably learn the hard way that most of the Comp Cams out-of-the-catalog hydraulic roller cams are gonna have some noise to them. 

I know that probably muddies the water, but this is a very difficult subject to throw out absolutes on. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Falcon67

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 10:04:48 AM »
Brent covered it well.  I have never put in a single pattern in any of the SBF engines I've done.  Mostly because the exhaust ports a weak on stock heads even when ported.  I have done a few 351Cs and the exhaust needs all the help it can get LOL.  The ported 4Vs on the Mustang flow 340/199 - you'd think an exhaust port large enough to house a family of Gerbils would flow like a sewer pipe, but it doesn't.  I see singles sold - Isky's catalog is full of them - for 351C and always wondered "eh?".  I have used a lot of "catalog" cams but always worked the numbers to get an idea of what would work best in a particular setup - never relied on a tech line suggestion.  However, The Howards hydro roller in the Mustang works well enough but the custom solid roller in the dragster from Brent's garage sale works great and sold me on the "call a builder that knows your motor and let that person order the cam".

Cams are a lot like carbs - everybody wants a "big one" and the companies will sell you a "smaller one" because they know good and well that it'll run better - generically - and that most people don't really know WTF they are trying to do.  850 double pumper on a station wagon with a stock converter and 3.08 gears, bitches on the internet that the carb is a POS.  And so on.

BTW - the Howards hydro makes noise too, not that I care.  If your cam makes noise but it runs good, maybe put less muffler on the car.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 10:09:20 AM by Falcon67 »

mbrunson427

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 10:27:47 AM »
This should be interesting then. I'm going to dyno it and should have results posted on here by fall. So Brent, by not putting some split in the duration and running a single pattern, what do you think is being given up here? Don't worry about offending, I like learning and I like the theory.

Combo is a 428, std bore and stroke. BBM heads, Shelby 2x4 C7ZX intake, hydraulic roller cam (.609" lift, 112 lobe centers, 226 @.050, 282 advertised seat duration), 11:1 compression, 4 speed toploader with 3.50 gears, 3300 pound 67 Mustang Coupe

Mike Brunson
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gt350hr

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 10:47:16 AM »
   mbrunson427,
   
           My first comment regarding dual pattern cams is YES.  The intake "charge" is fuel and air and the exhaust charge is still burning  and expanding. Both very different "mediums" so why have the same timing events?
           Brent is 100% correct in that familiarity with a specific engine is KEY to getting THE BEST cam for your application. Chevys, Oldsmobiles , Pontiacs , Fords, Mopars, etc ALL have their little quirks . Some thrive on lift and others love duration without giant lift.  Nitrous cams have seen allot of changes in the last few years . Shorter intake duration with giant lifts and as much as a 20 ( or more) duration split on the exhaust. Why? Nitrous force feeds the cylinder beyond what normal vacuum would pull in , so it needs longer to evacuate.  Yet there are "some" cylinder heads out there that are actually TOO good on the exhaust side and need to "choke" it by running a smaller exhaust lobe.
          Again , it's all about getting the guy that knows a particular engine like the back of his hand , not what his catalog says. I was "a guy at the cam company" 40 years ago  and saw co workers recommend stuff  and they had never built an engine! If it wasn't in the book they didn't know.
        Randy

scott foxwell

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 11:07:18 AM »
There is no "rule" when you should or shouldn't use a single pattern vs dual pattern cam. The intake to ex duration "split" is simply a result of proper valve events for the given combination. If the flow numbers show an intake to ex flow percentage, and the engine and application/combination warrant a single pattern cam, that's what you need. It happens VERY seldom. To put it simply, the bigger the difference between intake and ex flow numbers for the heads, the bigger the duration "split" will be. If whoever you're getting your cam from doesn't ask for flow numbers, or you aren't using flow numbers for your cam selection, you're missing out.

blykins

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 11:09:45 AM »
This should be interesting then. I'm going to dyno it and should have results posted on here by fall. So Brent, by not putting some split in the duration and running a single pattern, what do you think is being given up here? Don't worry about offending, I like learning and I like the theory.

Combo is a 428, std bore and stroke. BBM heads, Shelby 2x4 C7ZX intake, hydraulic roller cam (.609" lift, 112 lobe centers, 226 @.050, 282 advertised seat duration), 11:1 compression, 4 speed toploader with 3.50 gears, 3300 pound 67 Mustang Coupe

My guess is about 20-25 hp.  You only have about 58 degrees of overlap.  You'll have great vacuum, but you'll be shy on horsepower. 

Most importantly, you're gonna have trouble with that combo on pump gas, unless the ICL is set at 110.  11:1 compression with a 282 advertised duration and a 3.50 gear doesn't work well together if the cam is ahead much.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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mbrunson427

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »
guess I should mention.....I'm in Denver. Crappy air so we get away with more compression.
Mike Brunson
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blykins

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 11:45:29 AM »
Touche'......
Brent Lykins
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mbrunson427

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 02:12:48 PM »
Touche'......

Haha, I'm not trying to argue here! Just trying to pick up on theory and understand why Dema thought this was the best approach for what I've got and what I asked for. I'd call him and ask him but I think he'd get annoyed with all my questions pretty quickly.

Similar to most of the things that I've read, it seems that people generally want to discuss this in terms of peak power. For this car I'm more concerned with it's manners, maintaining practicality, and really focusing on how it is to drive. Worried about the whole curve, rather than just the top.
Mike Brunson
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blykins

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 02:30:02 PM »
I don't think that any of us have been talking just in terms of peak horsepower.  A lot of us build street engines and we look at the whole spectrum.   As I mentioned up top, there's nothing about a single pattern cam that screams "max streetability" and there's nothing about a dual pattern cam that says you'll give up any of the things that you mentioned.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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CaptCobrajet

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 10:10:58 PM »
Hey Mike,  Mr. Dema Elgin is no green horn.  Sounds like he listened carefully to what you described as your goals.  It's easy to overdo it at 5000+ DA.  Summer in Denver is not uncommon to see 9000 DA.  I like the single pattern in your case.  My favorite hyd roller for you would be 224/224.  The 226/226 flat tappet would "act" a little smaller than 224 roller.  He is trying to increase your cylinder pressure in an environment where pressure will be terminally low.   The BBM head enjoys the 112.  If you are willing to endure a proper break-in, I think you will like what he sent you.  If you ran that same combo in Tennessee, I'd tell you to go 232/238-12 with power brakes, and progressively more as desired.  I'd stay on the 112 with those heads with those kinds of cams.  The really good exhaust does not benefit as much from the tighter centers, and wider separation will carry longer and have a broader power range.
Blair Patrick

blykins

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 04:15:34 AM »
"hydraulic roller cam (.609" lift, 112 lobe centers, 226 @.050, 282 advertised seat duration)"

I think Elgin sent him a HR cam. 

Can you explain why you can't grind a dual pattern and increase cylinder pressure too?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 06:30:50 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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scott foxwell

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 06:52:30 AM »
I'm curious if you guys would call a 221/222 a dual pattern cam. HOw about a 222/221? What if the duration at .05 is the same but the lift is different? Is that a dual pattern cam?  ::)

blykins

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Re: Someone Teach Me About Cams... Single Pattern vs Dual Pattern
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 07:38:46 AM »
Do you really feel the need to roll your eyes? 

To answer your question, most camshaft manufacturers refer to it as a dual pattern camshaft when the intake lobe is different than the exhaust.  So technically, yes, if the duration varied by just one degree, or the duration was the same and the lift was different between intake/exhaust, then it would be a dual pattern. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 07:57:36 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports