Author Topic: Right stuff  (Read 11199 times)

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fryedaddy

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2017, 02:12:48 PM »
i know the word pry and fe intake should not be in the same sentence,but i had the same problem and i took out the thermostat and put a wooden handle in the thermostat hole and applied steady pressure and it slowly pulled loose
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

George vega

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2017, 05:25:51 PM »
Today I got the intake off. I had to use my engine hoist to get it off. It actually started lifting the car up. I tapped it with a rubber Malot and still nothing. So I started prying on it at the front China wall while the lift was pulling and it finally came loose. Never again.
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scott foxwell

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2017, 05:57:08 PM »

Now that I am done peeing on a fire hydrant, I am trying to help, if you don't want to agree, no need to and I am done talking, but from experience I do not think it's good advice for an FE, and I'd politely warn you not to do it on your upcoming build. 

If this were a Chevy style rubber gasket, thinner gap and wider footprint, I'll give it to you in a heart beat.  Ultra is a bit better than RTV, but not much and the china walls on an FE are different.  Too much you push into a return, but you need a lot to fill a gap and the block wall is narrow.  What generally happens with a non-adhesive type of gasket maker is that it lasts for a bit, and once oil crawls behind it, it lets go just like RTV. 

Personally, I have never had an FE end seal leak.  I have had some fight me until I was happy, often machining the intake, and even taping off the valley and using a coarse file to knock down a cork gasket to make it perfect, but pure sealer on an FE IMHO only works if you have an adhesive/gasket maker, and a tight gap.
OK, I yield to the fact that the FE is special. Seems all Fords are special, and no other engine is. It's all I hear on Ford forums...how "special" Fords are that the the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply to them like other engines. I guess the several FE's I've built and/or changed intakes on (admittedly only a handfull) somehow don't count toward any real or relative experience compared to others here but in my ignorance and lack of experience, I'll take a chance and keep doing what has worked really well so far.
 

blykins

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2017, 06:15:38 PM »
Frankly, they are special. 

FE's are different from pretty much every other engine, good and bad character flaws withstanding.   They are more difficult to build and much more difficult to build correctly.

We are just trying to give you some pointers, because it *really stinks* to have to pull an intake back off.   I would also suggest using sealant on both sides of the intake gasket.  Since the intake gaskets/ports are essentially submerged in oil, you want extra strength there.

Funny what you hear on different forums, huh?

On Chevy forums, I always hear:

"I set 'em up tight.  Sometimes I have to drag 'em down the road until I can get them to start."

"I bet that thing will fly!  It's got a 350 with double hump heads on it!"

"Just time it by ear!"

On Pontiac forums, I hear:

"That thing needs a hydraulic roller cam with solid roller lifters!"

« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 06:20:30 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
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My427stang

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 07:00:38 PM »

Now that I am done peeing on a fire hydrant, I am trying to help, if you don't want to agree, no need to and I am done talking, but from experience I do not think it's good advice for an FE, and I'd politely warn you not to do it on your upcoming build. 

If this were a Chevy style rubber gasket, thinner gap and wider footprint, I'll give it to you in a heart beat.  Ultra is a bit better than RTV, but not much and the china walls on an FE are different.  Too much you push into a return, but you need a lot to fill a gap and the block wall is narrow.  What generally happens with a non-adhesive type of gasket maker is that it lasts for a bit, and once oil crawls behind it, it lets go just like RTV. 

Personally, I have never had an FE end seal leak.  I have had some fight me until I was happy, often machining the intake, and even taping off the valley and using a coarse file to knock down a cork gasket to make it perfect, but pure sealer on an FE IMHO only works if you have an adhesive/gasket maker, and a tight gap.
OK, I yield to the fact that the FE is special. Seems all Fords are special, and no other engine is. It's all I hear on Ford forums...how "special" Fords are that the the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply to them like other engines. I guess the several FE's I've built and/or changed intakes on (admittedly only a handfull) somehow don't count toward any real or relative experience compared to others here but in my ignorance and lack of experience, I'll take a chance and keep doing what has worked really well so far.

Scott, I am not trying to be a pain, but no shit, old heads here have some tricks, and the FE has some unique (call it quirky) stuff, like it or not.   China walls are imperfect, rear mains, thrust bearings, valvetrain etc.  I just spent the day on a 67 400 HO Poncho, which leaked like a sieve, I went to the Poncho forums to see what guys were doing lately to seal them up.  When I was building 389s and 400s, nobody had a one piece pan gasket and nobody had a 1 piece rear main seal. I chose the new style gasket but not the rear main because I didn't like the idea of  threading that in with the crank in it under the car.  Doesn't mean anyone was wrong (well maybe me if it leaks LOL).

Please do it your way, I am the last guy to poke someone in the eye, but sometimes the guys who do a lot of them aren't stupid or were bit by things.  We disagree in here, try to explain it, and I would guess that every so often, we try each others tricks, just like any old wrench puller would when he sees someone else doing it and toss the ideas we don't like

Case in point, in the 90s when the original FE forum was running, NOBODY wanted to run stock style hyd rockers on an FE. In fact, used to be the "limit" was .500 lift.  You went adjustables or rollers.  Nowadays, after Brent and Blair really led the pack, many of us now see that they work better on a HR cam, lighter and easier and stable as hell.  Who would have thunk it?  Now it's mainstream HR stuff and smarter than a big set of rollers in many cases.

Second case, in the 90s you couldn't GIVE away a Streetmaster and everyone wanted a Sidewinder or Portosonic, then Jay started testing and fipped it all around

I am looking forward to your engine build, as I do anyone else's in here.  You mentioned some different choices in cams from Straub and I see he uses some different combos on Speedtalk, looking forward to it, they tend to be milder intake, wider and more exhaust, looking forward to see what you come up with.  You also eluded to some math and CSA thoughts, bring it on, would love to hear.

BTW, I used the last of the tube of Ultra Blue and some Ultra Grey today on that Poncho and my hunch is it'll work awesome ;)
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- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 09:06:36 PM »
Ultra grey?  Oh hell, I used Mediocre Grey....

My427stang

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2017, 05:50:59 AM »
Ultra grey?  Oh hell, I used Mediocre Grey....

It was a Pontiac, needed all the help it can get :)
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

scott foxwell

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 07:55:04 AM »
OK, OK...my reply above was a little exaggerated...but like a lot of you, I've been doing this a long time. I've built a few FE's and I've built a LOT of other engines. Pontiacs, Chryslers, OLD Fords...flat heads, Y blocks, and a lot of Chebbys. Thing is, they ALL are "special" and have their quirks and idiosyncrasies. I do sincerely appreciate the input and there are some really valid reasons for doing certain things on FE's because they are "different". One I never considered until Barry pointed it out to me is the fact that the intake gaskets are exposed to oil form the top as well as the bottom. Good point. Some gaskets will hold up better than others because of this. The china wall...well, every china wall is exposed to lots of oil. I work with a much narrower area on some BB Chev's because of the way the intake is made. Sometimes less than 1/4". The china wall is already narrow and the intake only covers half of it. I get one shot setting the intake or it'll push the bead of sealer off to one side and once I do that it'll never seal. BTDT too many times. My first FE ( in 1976) I used the end seals and it immediately spit the rear one out. Of course, I didn't know it till it was all together and had a horrible oil leak. This was a factory 428CJ with the iron intake...and we all know what that intake weighs. Learned my lesson early on FE intakes and end seals. You just take more time, make sure things are extra clean, and you're just that much more careful when fitting and setting the intake. Definitely not something you like/want to have to do inside the car.
It's all good.
One thing to note about UltraSeal and I've seen this first hand...I don't know if it was an old batch, but I did remove a leaking intake once and it had been on the engine for a week before dyno. End seals leaked badly. I pulled the intake and even after all that time, the Ultra was still wet inside the bead. It had formed a thick skin, but never set up throughout. I don't know if this is always the case and it takes a long time to fully cure, but I was really surprised to see that. Other than that one time, I've never had a problem with it. You do need to use it in a fairly short time as it will get a skin. Once it does that, it's probably not going to adhere to anything and will leak but I think any sealer is like that. Also, if the prep is right, it doesn't seem to allow oil to get behind it like Silicone RTV will. Silicone IMO is a waste of time no matter how well you prep the surfaces.
JMOFWIW.

blykins

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 08:33:40 AM »
I use nothing but Dow Corning 732 silicone.  On every engine.  It's given me the least amount of grief of anything else I've ever used.  Engine builder buddy of mine down here told me about it.  He's been using it for decades.   
Brent Lykins
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www.customfordcams.com
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Barry_R

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2017, 08:37:17 AM »
I use and recommend the Motorcraft TA-31.  Its a Ford product - a silicone intended for Ford diesel applications - so its good with oil, and the formulation meets some sort of an OE standard.  It comes in a half sized caulk tube, and seems to remain usable for a very long time.  I like the way you can control the bead width and height with the caulk tube, I like the way it sets up, and I like the fact that it actually does dry. 

I have removed many intakes with the TA-31 and never noticed a big challenge.  Just used a razor blade to slice the end seal bead from side to side.

On the FE the particular areas to look out for are those oil returns in the end of the head - they are "right there" and easy to plug up.  Also pay attention to the distributor hole, which is right up against the china wall.  Pretty easy to get a glob of silicone sticking out into the way.  I usually do a quick finger wipe in that area after setting the intake just to be sure its clear.

I had that same experience with ultra gray - an engine that had actually dyno run and needed to be pulled apart still had soft goop in the center of a bead.

jayb

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2017, 09:33:11 AM »
+1 on TA-31, best sealer out there IMO.  My junk comes apart so often that the Right Stuff is not an option...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

rcodecj

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2017, 09:50:53 AM »
I use 4 short studs on the ends to align and set the intake down, then I use the distributor for final alignment.
This allows me to set the intake down without any shifting.
I know the studs are at an angle but if they are short enough it works.

MeanMofakee

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2017, 10:02:47 AM »
Went to a local Ford dealer about a month ago to get some TA-31. He handed me a tube that looked like it had been there a while. Checked it out and it was about 6 months past the expiration date on the tube. Asked him about it and he made it sound like they don't use that much anymore. Told him I wanted to use it for rear main seal and intake. There was a mechanic that works there at the other desk getting parts, he said they use some other stuff now for instances such as that. I got the impression that he thought this new stuff (fomoco) was the s--t and made it sound like the TA-31 was getting phased out. 

Heo

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2017, 12:28:24 PM »
Well about the TA-31...Now when i started up the Galaxie i had a Small hole in the radiator
sprayed water out from the grill had no time to take out the radiator to solder it.....opened
the radiatorcap o take the pressure away and......well sometimes you test things you are sure
that it wont work but it wont make it worse...smeared some TA-31 over the wet hole, didn't stick
smeared one more time it stuck packed the suitcases in the trunk had dinner and packed some
jugs of water  topped up the radiator went on vacation   imagine... it still not leaking :o im impressed



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George vega

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Re: Right stuff
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2017, 04:31:13 PM »
Sorry guys. I thought I posted getting the intake off. I used the engine hoist with a strap around the front intake runners until it almost lifted the car.  Then I prayed iundr the front China wall until I felt it separate a little. I then let the engine hoist down and finished prying it off. I the removed the lifters, timing set and cam out. I also got 8 header bolts off. 24 more to go.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 04:37:51 PM by George vega »
68 Mustang Cobra Jet tribute Race Car