Author Topic: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...  (Read 13671 times)

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cjshaker

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3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« on: June 08, 2017, 04:03:40 PM »
I drove the Mach to work today and it ran fine. Went out to start it and let it warm up a bit after work and it started to cut out a couple times, then just died. Quick check of fuel and that was fine. Did a quick check of the cap and center button and they were fine. I knew right away what it was. Another damned pick-up! I threw in my spare distributor and it instantly fired up.

This is the 3rd pick-up to go bad in as many years. I had just installed it last year about one week before Drag Week, when my last one went bad (coincidently, at work also ::))! Altogether, it has maybe 1100-1200 miles on it. All of them were new when installed. ALL of my wiring is direct with no cuts, splices or anything else to cause problems. Has anyone else experienced problems like this? Am I just getting faulty parts, or has MSD's quality hit the skids? One I could understand, two I could swallow as a fluke, but THREE? I'll probably hold off on buying a lottery ticket for now.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

machoneman

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 05:59:39 PM »
Maybe...

-engine ground strap? Two can't hurt.

-in a MSD box or a knock off?

-same supplier both times? Maybe have been multiple shelf stock boxes all from a bad batch. Try a different supplier.
Bob Maag

Yellow Truck

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 06:33:57 PM »
As previously noted - I got 12 MINUTES out of my brand new MSD distributor. I will add another ground strap when I put in the new one, but now it is grounded to the intake, which is well bolted to the block, and the intake has a grounds strap, but just to avoid having the discussion with MSD I'll put in another one.

Rather discouraging. And they made me pay the shipping to return it.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Lenz

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 07:04:10 PM »
Maybe trouble with the newer stuff?  I have an MSD box and distributor, setup was on the Galaxie when I bought it.  It's at least 7 years old by dated photos.  Besides the main ground I have a strap from the intake to the firewall and also an additional ground from the battery to the core support.  The ground from the 6AL is connected to the engine behind the alternator.

Concerning wiring integrity, mine was an absolute mess of taped and bundled wires, all had to be redone.  The lousy wiring job with taped connections didn't affect the performance of the unit so far as I could tell.
Len Zielinski
'64 Galaxie 500 445 Toploader
'69 F100 300 stick

fryedaddy

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 08:17:01 PM »
the pickup on my msd dist is 6 or 7 years old,solid rust and still fires right up,my son is a expert,perfectionist,when it comes to wiring,and he is big on getting a good,good ground.he wired mine up 6 or 7 years ago,no problems so im sorry i have no idea.i know it dont run off a ground,maybe heat or moisture?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 08:47:15 PM by fryedaddy »
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

cjshaker

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 09:07:57 PM »
Technically, the ground shouldn't have any effect on the ignition, as the pick-up is wired completely through the box, and the box is grounded straight to my battery. But still, I have 2 ground straps and the engine buckle which goes from the frame to head (although I think it has nylon bushings). I even changed the box to a newer one last year when I was chasing the problem, because it was very intermittent, so I can't even blame the box.

I suppose it's just bad luck. It's not the first time I've gotten a string of bad parts, but I don't really expect it from a company like MSD. BUT, there's a reason I carry a spare distributor now. Obviously a good idea now, and in the future.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Stangman

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 09:15:01 PM »
Hey Doug that was the dizzy you were going to lend me. This is not good news to me since I just put a dizzy and 6AL in over the weekend. I guess I should install anb extra ground

Heo

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 09:38:34 PM »
Maybe problem with the alternator  giving voltage spikes??



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

KMcCullah

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 10:16:28 PM »
Damn that sucks, Doug. I remember reading about your hassles last year before Drag week. It caused me to get a spare magnetic pick-up for my Pro-Billet.

 About 2 weeks ago my 416 just died when I pulled up in the driveway. I had just ran the 18mi up the mountain in record time.  8) Been trying to get my rings to break in. Anyhow.... I couldn't get it to re-fire. Nothing. I figured I was going to be doing a magnetic pick-up swap.  After some troubleshooting I found I didn't have any spark at the coil wire when I jumper wired the mag pick-up plug going to the 6AL. That narrowed it down to the box or coil. The coil was making a squeaking noise when I pulled my jumper out of the plug but no spark.  I swapped it with the HVC-II coil from my 504 and it fired right up. So I guess the MSD "High Vibration" coil I just bought last November took a dump. I'm starting to wonder about this MSD $hit too.
Kevin McCullah


Rory428

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 10:49:49 PM »
I have to wonder if MSD is cutting corners on quality, or......? The first few years I raced my Fairmont, I used an Accel dual point distributor and a big ugly yellow Accel Super Coil, and it always ran just fine. After a couple of fellow racers pestered me about "getting with modern times" about my "stone age" ignition, so I gave in, and installed a Ford Duraspark distributor I bought at a wrecking yard from a 1975 F250 360, and installed a brand new MSD 6T ignition box. This was around 1990, and MSD  6ALs were not made yet. I chose a 6T as it had a separate electrical connector to hook up a "Soft Touch" rev limiter, to which I added a 2 Step module when I switched the Fairmont from a C6 to the Jerico 4 speed in 2000. That same 27 year old MSD 6T box is still working fine to this day. However, when I built my 85 Mustang Stock Eliminator car, which I first started running in 2003, I installed a new MSD 6AL box, with a Ford Duraspark dist. About 6 years ago, I replaced the Ford distributor with a MSD billet distributor. Since I started running the Mustang, I have had 2 different 6AL boxs fail, and a couple of years ago, the engine died going down the track. It restarted, then died a couple of times on the way back to the pits, then quit altogether, no spark. I installed a new MSD magnetic pick up assembly, and it has been working fine since then. But that seems pretty unreliable considering this is a car just used for racing, so running time is pretty low compared to a street car. Have to wonder if the 6T is just better than a 6AL, or if the older stuff was better quality. I have never had a magnetic pick up fail on a Duraspark dist.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Rory428

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 10:53:20 PM »
Oh yeah, although it is still working, my steel round body MSD "Blaster" coil is leaking oil around the crimp where the "can" is sealed to the plastic top.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

cjshaker

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 11:15:54 PM »
Kevin, I did the jumper test on the box the last time this happened. It was weird that I couldn't get a spark by jumping the wires, per MSD's instructions, but when I went to any ground, it sparked fine. That's what prompted me to buy another box and redo all my wiring so that everything went directly to the battery. Problem is, nothing changed. I still had no spark when jumping the wires, but it was fine when going to any other ground. I even made a short video of it then...

https://youtu.be/85PLiA8qIr0

I still can't explain this. My power comes straight from the battery, to a single pull/single throw switch, then straight to the box. Ground is straight to battery. The box lights and blinks like it's supposed to, according to their website. But their test does not work as it's supposed to. Go figure  ???

Maybe problem with the alternator  giving voltage spikes??


Heo, I thought of that, but I've hooked up a sensitive, large sweep voltage meter and watched it. Nothing out of the ordinary that I could see. I may see about adding some sort of filter or regulator to assure that the voltage is stable, but I don't have any problems or indications of spikes with any of my gauges or lights.

Hey Doug that was the dizzy you were going to lend me. This is not good news to me since I just put a dizzy and 6AL in over the weekend. I guess I should install anb extra ground

LOL, yeah, the one that's in it now is the one I was going to let you borrow. But it's good....for now. I have another spare pick-up to put in the other distributor. I guess I'll keep 2 on hand at all times until I'm confident that the problem has gone away.

Maybe...

-engine ground strap? Two can't hurt.

-in a MSD box or a knock off?

-same supplier both times? Maybe have been multiple shelf stock boxes all from a bad batch. Try a different supplier.

Bob, 2 ground straps, no issues with starting (except for some heat soak on the long drives during Drag Week), an MSD box, and the pick-ups were bought far enough apart that any batch should have been gone through. Still, I think I will buy one from Summit and one from Jegs, just to break it up even more.

On a side note, I spent 10 minutes last weekend running a file through, and re-gapping the points in my '63 Comet, which has sat outside for the last 25 years, and has been parked and not started for the last 8 or 9. It started instantly. I still like points for dead nuts reliability, but the advantages to the electronic ignition are just hard to pass up.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

cjshaker

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 11:24:00 PM »
Rory, funny you mentioned the "older" stuff from MSD. I've had a Blaster ignition that I've been using for 24 years now. Used it for 20 years in my '68 Highboy, now it's in the '70 F-350. Never had an issue with it. It was triggered by points in my Highboy, now by a Duraspark distributor that Faron had done for the engine I got off of Blair. I worry that it's living on borrowed time, but if it ain't broke...
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Joey120373

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 01:41:04 AM »
I'm assuming its a 2 wire pick up? if so i  cant see how engine grounding would have anything to do with it. A 2 wire or VR (variable reluctor ) pick up is nothing more than a little ac voltage generator, it produces an alternating voltage wave as the metal tab on the distributor shaft approaches then leaves the fixed metal tab on the pick up. The important thing is that the ac voltage it generates swings to a negative voltage at exactly the point where the tab on the shaft starts moving away from the tab on the pick up, making it useful for a reference.
This is generally called a "zero crossing point" and the circuitry used to trigger off of this shouldn't really care what the " ground " looks like, as it is only really looking for the voltage from the VR lines to go from a positive to a negative, the ground potential, or center point,  applies equally to both. The amplitude of the ac signal coming from the VR sensor varies quite a bit, it could be .3 volts ac at idle, then 30-50 volts ac at higher rpms,
the circuitry triggering off of this doesn't really care, it just wants to see the voltage (current flow) swap direction. As long as the main DC voltage used to power the triggering circuitry is sufficient to turn it on, then all should be fine. MSD likes the main power and ground connections right on the battery, so barring a dead battery, there should always be plenty of juice (DC voltage potential) to get the triggering circuit operating, and, it doesn't care if the blocks ground is not quite what the battery ground is, because the 2 wires coming off the VR sensor aren't really referenced to
anything but each other. So my guess is that its simply a bad pick-up, or a bad pick up circuit in the MSD box.

if it has 3 wires, its a bit of a different story, these type can either pull a high voltage low, or a low voltage high, based on the proximity of the tab on the shaft to the tab on the pick up. Either way, if their "ground" this sensor is using is referenced to the block and not to the battery, it could cause problems because the "ground" the MSD is using is what i like to call " the mother of all grounds ", otherwise known as the negative battery terminal.

By far the easiest way to check for a bad block ground is to use a voltage meter, put the positive meter probe to the block, and the negative probe to the battery negative terminal, then watch the meter while the engine is cranking. Its not uncommon to see a 1 to 2 volt reading, what you are seeing here is the resistance of the main ground strap from the block to the battery. try to get this as low as possible with a good beefy ground strap, but there will always be a voltage drop, unless you are using a super conductor, copper wire has resistance, and the more current you try to flow, the more it matters.


Im ranting a bit here, so forgive me, but im an electronics guy, and i see/hear the " it must be a bad ground " argument thrown around as a catch all for anything and everything. Yes, a bad ground can and does cause all kinds of problems, but that doesn't mean its to blame for everything, if the block ground is even marginally bad, the starter would throw a fit. If the block ground was bad enough to cause issues with the MSD ( witch should be grounded at the battery, but lets assume its grounded to the block..), the MSD draws like 7-10 amps, the starter has to go through the same ground and it draws 200-500 amps, if the ground is that questionable, the starter is going to let you know. So if she is cranking just fine, but still no spark, chances are the block ground is just fine.

Jay used to deal in these type sensors, so I'm sure he could explain it better, or tell me where i could be wrong  :P


Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 3rd MSD pick-up bad in as many years...
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 05:21:26 AM »
Older stuff seems great.  I have an MSD box and coil from 1994 that I'm still using (I replaced the coil recently, but it still functions just fine).

Not helpful to your post Doug, but I have been using the $48 Duraspark from Rock Auto for a variety of builds and engines and haven't had an issue yet.