Author Topic: Near stock 428 CJ  (Read 10331 times)

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Rory428

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Near stock 428 CJ
« on: May 07, 2017, 09:20:16 PM »
Last week we dynoed the 428 Cobra Jet engine I will be installing into my 1959 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 door sedan, replacing the original but very tired 332 2 barrel FE and 2 speed FordOMatic. This was a real low buck build, based on a 1974 428 CJ Service short block I bought over 30 years ago.
The block is still standard bore, and retains the cast  `428 Super`marked pistons, on the original C7AE-B big bolt rods, and the original 1UB crank. The block was just jet washed, align honed, surfaced .002, and honed. Basic cast rings installed on the cleaned up rods.Heads are a pair of dead stock C8OE-N iron CJ heads I bought in 1975 (for $175.00), with just a basic valve job on the factory valves. Only changes are a very mild Oregon Cam solid flat tappet cam (.518" lift, 228 duration at .050, lobe sep 114, Int lobe centerline 110, exhaust centerline 118, .025 valve lash. Did not degree, just lined up the dots. Intake manifold is an untoughed Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Holley 750, distributor a stock truck Duraspark, connected to the dyno (Super Flow 901). Used a pair of rusty, dented up 6114 Hooker headers. In reality, the main reason for the dyno session was to do the cam and lifter break in, install the innser valve springs, and ensure there were no leaks or other concerns. All went well.We didnt really do any HP tuning , just wanted to see whatI had.  I am not really very dyno literate, but after the break in period, the dyno would not load down properly, my buddy at first suspected a clogged water inlet filter, which was fine, so he couldnt really get any really low RPM data. (The day after he found the problem, something to do with a stepper motor valve had slipped on the shaft for the water brake) Anyhow, after cam break in, we made a few pulls, starting at 3600 RPM, as the dyno would run away with the valve issue at lower RPM. I was hoping for somewhere between 350 to 400 HP, ended up with 382 HP at 4600 RPM, stayed over 370 HP until 5300, still had 362 at 5600 RPM, so hardly a peaky beast. Even more happy with the Torque, at 3600 RPM it had 462 ft/lbs, peaked at 465 at 4000, and stayed above 400 until 5000 RPM, so it should haul the fairly heavy 59 around pretty nicely. It idled down to 600 RPM quite nicely. Oil pressure was a bit higher than I expected, 65 psi at hot idle, stayed steady at 85 psi hot during the pulls. The high pressure may drop a bit in the car, I will be running Brad Penn 10-30, the break in oil was Joe Gibbs BR 15-50, all I could find locally.
For those thinking the numbers are weak, keep in mind that this is the same dyno that had my Fairmonts  428 at 518 HP (ran 10.03ET at 132 MPH,at 3100 pounds), my 427 at under 550 HP (ran 9.97ET at 132 MPH), and my flat tappet pump gas 331 SB Ford at 485HP (ran 10.28 at 128 MPH in my 85 Mustang, at 3050 pounds). All 3 of these engines ran pretty much exactly what my trusty Moroso Power Speed Calculator  predicited they should at those weights.
Plugging the 382 HP 428 into the calculator (at 3800 pounds), says the 59 SHOULD be able to run 109 MPH in the 1/4 mile, and in a well setup chassis be capable of cracking the 11.9s. Since this will be a mildly geared, far from optimal chassis setup street cruiser, I will be happy if I can get into the 12.80s at 106 or so MPH, which is pretty close what my very similar mild 428 CJ ran in my 70 Mach 1 in the mid 80s (actually ran a best of 12.52 at 109 MPH). Both cars with 4 speeds, a 2.32 low close ratio in the Mustang, 2.78 low gear wide ratio for the 59. Of course, dynos, calculators and wishing are just guidelines until the rubber hits the road, hope to have the 59 ready for the road by late summer, see what it really runs then.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

jayb

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 07:26:23 AM »
Rory, thanks for the data and that sounds like a very typical 428CJ.  I've had them go anywhere from 355 to 385 on my dyno all stock, a little more with headers.  Especially given the stock heads and mild cam, those look like good, honest dyno numbers to me - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjshaker

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 04:20:17 PM »
That cam is almost identical to the Crane I  had in my 390 Highboy. It worked really well for all around, do-whatever-you-wanted power with zero fuss in that heavy truck. I'm sure it'd be even nicer with that longer stroke, and idle like a puppy. Should be a nice combo for your '59. You need to post a couple pictures of this thing, when you get a chance.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Barry_R

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 04:45:35 AM »
Sounds like a nice engine and realistic numbers.  Should run really well.  I had a similar - bigger cam - 428 in my car back a couple decades ago and it ran 12s every weekend forever and drove on the street as my daily driver for a couple years.  Probably the most pleasant combination I ever had in the car.

chilly460

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 07:44:18 AM »
Thanks for posting the numbers.  As others stated, it's nice to see what a near stock combo will do, should make for a great street motor.

Rory428

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 09:46:26 AM »
Sounds like a nice engine and realistic numbers.  Should run really well.  I had a similar - bigger cam - 428 in my car back a couple decades ago and it ran 12s every weekend forever and drove on the street as my daily driver for a couple years.  Probably the most pleasant combination I ever had in the car.
Thats the reason for such a mild build Barry. Back in the early 80s, I built a similar 428 CJ for my 70 R code 4 speed Mach 1, basically stock except for a Cam Dynamics "Stage 1" solid flat tappet cam, very similar to this cam, an Edelbrock Streetmaster, Holley 780, and Hooker 6114 headers. It drove almost like stock, and ran mid 12s (best of 12.52@ 111 MPH with open headers). A while later, I switched to a larger Crane solid, 238/248 @ .050, which I regreted. It did pick up a tad at the track (12.47@113 MPH), and sounded cool as hell, but with the 2.32 low geared Toploader, the loss of bottom end power hurt, plus the gas mileage took a real dump. Not a big deal for a weekend toy that sees limited use, but I drove  the Mustang a lot back then.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

e philpott

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2017, 11:45:10 AM »
 Nice build should be great in the application, I use the Old Moroso speed calculator too , I just bought a new one because the old one was falling apart and yellowed so bad it was hard to read

FElony

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2017, 11:52:20 PM »
I have always loved Rory's approach to engines in this segment of the hobby. I want to be him when I grow up.

WerbyFord

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 03:24:38 PM »
Rory,
I just saw this build of yours over here.
Do you recall the deck clearance and gasket thickness?
Even LOL the head cc's?
Trying to Gonkulate this thing.

You may recall, I think that Canadian Dyno of yours is about 5% stingy, that tends to make things line up with the Gonkulator for most of your builds.
Nothing wrong with that, and in fact it may be why you can use the gross dyno power and get the Moroso wheel to agree -

Most of your cars are set up with very little parasitic loss - so NET power is very close to GROSS dyno power. And Rear-Wheel (likely what Moroso uses) is probably not much under that with a 4-speed, maybe 6% or 7% down but not much more. So the Moroso wheel would get you pretty close on a well set-up car.

The cam you describe there looks like a clone of the old Ford HiPo cam (289hipo, 352hp, 390hp, 406, 427-306-306 cam). So it should give maybe a 20hp boost vs the stock "CJ" cam.

On reading your post I realize the car might be done already - wondered how it is going?
I will look in the "ET" section. :)

Rory428

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 01:18:54 AM »
Werby, although the engine has been in my 59 for over 6 months now, I still have a lot of work to do on the car before it is road ready. My garage is not heated, so by the time the racing season was over, I had spent not enough time in the garage before winter came. I really need to get my butt in gear once the weather warms up a bit! Between the 59 and the Fairmont, which has been sitting in the trailer since October, I have plenty to do by spring. Just need to get motivated.
As for my 428, I didn`t measure the deck height, but I`m guessing its between .015-.020".  I used the FelPro 1020 head gaskets, which have a 4.400" bore, and normally compress around .042-.044". We only checked 1 chamber, it was  75ccs.
Regarding the Moroso Power Speed Calculator, my machinest/dyno buddy have always found the slide rule works just about always dead nuts on flywheel HP, at least on his SF 901 engine dyno, when HP, weight, and MPH are concerned. ET is much more dependant on how close to ideal the gearing, chassis, and overall combination setup is, at least with our stickshift stuff. I have found its not to hard for the ET vs MPH numbers to be over a full second off with a typical street car, with all the compromises such cars normally have to deal with.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

My427stang

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 07:49:51 AM »
I wouldn't consider that engine weak, sounds like a real nice street CJ and I cannot imagine how different it will be compared to a 332 LOL

Did you ever drive the car with the baby FE? 
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Rory428

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 03:53:45 AM »
Doug, yeah, I never raced it, but between almost 60 years of use, the 2 speed FordOMatic, plus 2.91 gears, the 332 2 barrel ran pretty nicely, but was a "tad" low on acceleration. It did cruise down the freeway pretty well. The new running gear should wake it up pretty good. I just need to get my butt in gear and get the car finished.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Stangman

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 11:28:19 PM »
Once it warms up it looks like you have a week or so of work there

Rory428

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 12:36:06 AM »
Actually, that photo was taken at my buddys shop just after he painted the car. I have done SOME work on the car, the engine and trans are in, headers bolted up, clutch linkage in, along with a rebuilt steering box. But, there certainly is much more to do. It will be nice to be able to get all the new,rechromed, or rebuilt stuff cluttering up a spare bedroom in the house on/in/or under the car, and get it back on the road.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Stangman

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Re: Near stock 428 CJ
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2018, 06:35:35 PM »
Very clean looking