Author Topic: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?  (Read 12728 times)

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JohnN-1BADFE

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462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« on: December 13, 2016, 08:04:43 PM »
Brother is building a 462 and engine builder wants to go with KC Stage III heads and I think that is too much and Stage II would work better.

Looking for input from much more knowledgeable FE folks here.  Looking for 550-600 HP.  (As always, more is better)  ;)

Here are some details, not a lot but...

1966 Fairlane
462 FE
C-6 automatic
Power steering / manual brakes
Currently has a 3.89 gear
11:1 - 11:5 compression
Performer RPM intake
Custom Bullet Hydraulic Roller just under .650 lift and intake duration between 250-260 @ .050
T&D rockers
850 Holley
CVR water pump / electric fan

« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 08:13:36 PM by JohnN-1BADFE »
67 Fairlane GT - 390/451 stroker - 654HP / 552TQ

67 Fairlane S/W - 390/458 stroker with tri-power - 515HP / 595TQ

Joe-JDC

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 10:36:57 PM »
At that power level and cubic inch, stay with the Stage II heads.  The ones I have flowed are in the 330+cfm range, and for the price the additional flow with Stage III heads would only help with a camshaft over .700" lift.  Also, the larger ports would more than likely be down on torque for any street duty. JMO, but you asked. Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

blykins

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2016, 02:16:26 PM »
I'll back Joe on that.....Stage 2's would be the way to go for a 460 inch street engine.

I would also advise that you either change the camshaft or you will have to do some specialized work on the valvetrain to be able to take advantage of it.  FE's with hydraulic rollers aren't in favor of higher revs and a 250-260° @ .050" camshaft with 462 cubes will not even start to come on hard until the valves are getting ready to float. 

You will need to manipulate the lifter travel and you will also need to keep everything as light as you can, including the valves/springs/retainers/etc. 

That's my only gripe with contacting a cam company directly and not speaking with someone who builds FE's.  I would venture to say that there's not one guy at Bullet who has worked on an FE before and they're just not familiar with how the hydraulic rollers function with FE valvetrain. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
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SICTSIX

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2016, 09:28:49 PM »
Thanks for the input guys
What if we go with a solid roller ?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:30:30 PM by SICTSIX »
C.Norris
Denver,Colorado
1966 Fairlane GTA 462 ci
1966 Fairlane XL 562 ci

blykins

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 05:55:03 AM »
It just depends on the goals and the rpm range that you want to be in.  Nothing wrong with a hydraulic roller, but for you to take advantage of the one you have, you will need to take that into consideration and implement it into the build. 

Solid rollers will let you rpm easier, but they also come with the risks of using a solid roller lifter.  Since the lifters are under increased spring pressure and lash, they take quite a beating and just don't have the longevity of a hydraulic lifter.  Now, with that being said, lots of guys are out there running solid rollers, so don't let it spook you, but you just have to know the pros/cons of each setup. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
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My427stang

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 06:55:29 AM »
Brent/Joe, how much different is the volume with a set of Stage 2 vs Stage 3?  Seems like when you add the volume of the intake, the percentage would be small.  I run a set of KC's Stage 2s that were worked over afterwards, but haven't had a set of KC's Stage 3s in my hand
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

ScotiaFE

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 08:04:52 AM »
Thanks for the input guys
What if we go with a solid roller ?

Well I've been driving around for little while with the solid roller.
Mix of street/strip.
Seems rock solid for me, so far. ;)
It is the 288r and use about 620lbs on the springs and reinforced the 4 stud bosses. Gap at 18 Hot.
I've done a few road trips, one over 600 miles.
Probably around 1500 miles and about 35 passes over the last two seasons.
Looks ok so far.

blykins

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 08:10:06 AM »
Howie, if you have good lifters, you'll be able to stretch that out quite a bit.  If they're not pressure fed, I would plan for an inspection in the near future. 

Ross, I've used one set of the KC Stage 3's.  I didn't pour them, but they were noticeably bigger.  Flowed around 370.   Maybe Joe has poured a port.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

blykins

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 09:57:39 AM »
FWIW, the Stage 3 head has a 215cc port volume......
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Joe-JDC

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 10:34:56 AM »
On my Survival heads that I hand ported, they flowed 352 cfm @ 196cc.  The Stage II heads from KC flow 338 cfm @ a listed 195 ccs.  I have not poured a set of the Stage III heads but the ports are considerably larger, very similar to the BT MR port size which flows 360 cfm.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

CaptCobrajet

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 10:29:17 PM »
All of those heads are way wrong for the use.  A streetable hydraulic roller/stroker combo with pump gas compression is not going to want to turn more than 62-6500, and will spend it's life mostly at or below 3000 rpm.  A 300-315 cfm @ .600 lift head with around a 170 volume will drive away from all that cavernous cnc stuff from 2000-6000 rpm, especially at 5000+ elevation where the car will be used.  My advice would be to go smaller, not bigger ports,  use the right valve job, and not get caught up in BIG internet flow numbers at the expense of missing the right combo for the job.  Great big ports need huge engines, huge cams, and high rpm to work.  I just finished a set of BTs that went 335 @ .700 and are just under 170 cc.......and they are going on a 511 cube, drag only engine.  The FE port is very short, and cc values are misleading as compared to other stuff.

Torque is king, and toilet bowl-sized ports that "flow" a big number mean nothing in my shop.  One might be surprised just how small a port can be as long as it flows well and has high airspeed.  A good street head should never be over 170 cc to do the best, and if you put the small heads in the right environment, they will run and make power anyway.  I consider 195 cc a HUGE port for an FE.  Ports that big should approach 400 cfm, and be on "max effort" mills.  Everything I said here is just my opinion based on many FE builds, of many types, over many years.

I flowed a pair of grand canyon heads for a good customer once......380 cfm, 210 cc runners.  Flowed good all the way.  820 hp, 600-ish torque.  The next year, I replaced those heads with some of mine, 183 cc, flowed 10 less on my bench.  Made 75 more hp and about 180 ft-lbs of torque.  Same cam, same dyno.  Bigger ain't better.

Okay, rant over....sorry, lol.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:40:28 PM by CaptCobrajet »
Blair Patrick

bn69stang

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2016, 06:27:34 PM »
Thanks Blair , the rant made the day .. IM happy with my BBM s that flow 300 @.600 lift with 2.15 intake , 1.68 exhaust and all seems to work well together at 434 inches .. happy friday
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

My427stang

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2016, 09:13:16 PM »
But that's a 180cc head with 434 inches :)

I agree with what Blair is saying, but finding a 170 cc head that flows 300 means you build a head. 

I never measured the volume of my D2s, but they flow 277 cfm and a stock D2 is likely sub 150 ccs to start, maybe 165 now? and that 445 seems to be punching way above it's weight.  I suppose with 11/32 valves we could have got a bit more out of them too.

However a 20cc change in intake port volume is likely at most close to 5% volume of the whole runner on an FE single 4 barrel, so it still seems odd to me that if you don't go too big of a CSA on the intake manifold runner, that it could kill the port with so little length before the short turn.

Can't argue with results, but surprises me just the same
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 11:16:07 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

FErocious

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2016, 05:03:17 AM »
All of those heads are way wrong for the use.  A streetable hydraulic roller/stroker combo with pump gas compression is not going to want to turn more than 62-6500, and will spend it's life mostly at or below 3000 rpm.  A 300-315 cfm @ .600 lift head with around a 170 volume will drive away from all that cavernous cnc stuff from 2000-6000 rpm, especially at 5000+ elevation where the car will be used.  My advice would be to go smaller, not bigger ports,  use the right valve job, and not get caught up in BIG internet flow numbers at the expense of missing the right combo for the job.  Great big ports need huge engines, huge cams, and high rpm to work.  I just finished a set of BTs that went 335 @ .700 and are just under 170 cc.......and they are going on a 511 cube, drag only engine.  The FE port is very short, and cc values are misleading as compared to other stuff.

Torque is king, and toilet bowl-sized ports that "flow" a big number mean nothing in my shop.  One might be surprised just how small a port can be as long as it flows well and has high airspeed.  A good street head should never be over 170 cc to do the best, and if you put the small heads in the right environment, they will run and make power anyway.  I consider 195 cc a HUGE port for an FE.  Ports that big should approach 400 cfm, and be on "max effort" mills.  Everything I said here is just my opinion based on many FE builds, of many types, over many years.

I flowed a pair of grand canyon heads for a good customer once......380 cfm, 210 cc runners.  Flowed good all the way.  820 hp, 600-ish torque.  The next year, I replaced those heads with some of mine, 183 cc, flowed 10 less on my bench.  Made 75 more hp and about 180 ft-lbs of torque.  Same cam, same dyno.  Bigger ain't better.

Okay, rant over....sorry, lol.




  I am in total agreement. (Blair, rant on, please!) I place a lot more faith in my pitot tubes than I do in raw cfm. Pitot tubes and port shaping/sizing. I like to check air-speeds at various locations in the port to evaluate it's effectiveness. The port integrity is also "put to the test" with higher flow depressions to see if the SSR  is too abrupt.

  Airspeed management and air quality through the port is crutial to an efficient energy transfer. I feel very strongly that with the shallow valve angle and low port entry that most of us have to contend with is that it is imperative that we raise the port and further shrink it down to deliver to the intake system the airspeed and airflow needed to develop maximum efficiency within the engine's operating range. The system-demand port airspeed  for the application will demand a much smaller port than the internet will say you need.  When cfm becomes  the primary focus the ports become larger.

  Another often overlooked area is the combustion chamber. It's effectiveness is difficult to determine without a more in-depth analysis. There are a few methods available to flowbench operators and port developers to be able to evaluate the port , valve seat and chamber communication. Measuring perimeter air speeds from the valve side is just one.

  Now, charging for that extra time and effort is another animal......  >:(
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 05:05:48 AM by FErocious »

bn69stang

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Re: 462 build: Stage II or Stage III or....?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 08:53:12 AM »
Thanks Ross , i guess i just agree that bigger is nt always better . and i also live 5500 ft above sea level
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..