Way OT engine question about 335 M engines.

[FE Jonny]

Well still working on my never ending FE project but picked up a 78 Bronco. Here is what I got 351M going to a 400 crank and some heads due to the total crappieness of the stock ones. Here is my dilemma oiling system and I want to do a hydraulic roller cam. Did a little reasearch and the Cleavelands apparently suffer from detonation and oiling issues. So what's everyone's take on mods for a DD engine going to 6000 RPM? Any thoughts on Howard's lifters, was thinking of using them due to the slightly larger diameter to tighten things up in the lifter bores? I do not want to do restrictor and starve my valvetrain and was thinking the usuall blueprint and oil return mod stuff along with a HV pump and Moroso high pressure relief spring. Was looking at the Panteras forum for tips and found this article: http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/5810061293
Any comments to add from the gurus? Thanks dudes I am 335 illiterate.

[machoneman]

"Do not infer from what I have written that the 351C lubrication system is poorly engineered, for it operates fine within the parameters for which it was designed. For engines no more powerful than the Boss 351 (perhaps 370 bhp) and at engine speeds below 6300 rpm or so, the system operates just fine, NO modifications are necessary. Neither infer that the 351C lubrication system is inferior to other American OHV (push rod) V8 motors, for many of America's best loved muscle car engines have similar lubrication systems."

George P, who is a noted guru, is quoted above and answers your questions quite well. 

[Joe-JDC]

I built a 351M using a 400 crankshaft, with ported set of 2V heads, Holley Street Dominator intake with mild gasket match, Holley 600, headers, and good dual exhaust with crossover pipe, Comp Cams H268 camshaft with matching springs, etc., hardened pushrods, guide plates, roller rocker arms with rocker arm bosses milled for screw in studs, and I was able to tow a 6000# trailer with my '78 all over the USA.  Would rev past 6000 rpm with ease, but not much to be gained by doing so.  Very strong and took the abuse of two sons finishing high school as a daily driver.  Had 4 speed OD manual transmission that was supposedly junk, but lived quite well as a tow transmission, and daily driver.  Joe-JDC

[e philpott]

pretty much similar as Joe , friend had George Montgomery build him a 400 out of a 351 in the late 80's , not sure of the internals but had the street dominator , headers and 600 , had no problems ripping 36 tall tires in 4x4 mode and barking tires on the shifts with manual trans , it ran pretty darn good for the time period and crappy gas

[My427stang]

We did one in a 78 F-100 short box with a C-6 in the early 90s.   1850, Performer intake, 351 cubes though, headers, duals, recurve and a Napa Performer cam, which was your standard 204/214 grind you can buy anywhere.  That little truck ran real strong, even with only 351 cubes, night and day compared to stock 

I can only imagine with a 400 cid and a little rubbing on the heads, they'd run real well

[Heo]

I had a 70 LTD That got a new 2v 400 in 73 due to the
390 freeze cracked .It moved that barge realy well and
roasted the tires with ease but after 3-4000 rpm it was
all over
I bet a four barrel intake a nice set of headers and a cam
vakes them up to 6000

[cammerfe]

FWIW, Jack Roush's personal Cobra has a +/-450 CID '400' in it. He made use of a set of NASCAR heads from back when the Cleveland platform was in use and, I suppose, some of the internals as well. I know from personal experience that it had no problem going past the far end of the speedo needle sweep with street gearing.

I asked him why he used that particular combo and he said, "Just to show what's possible."

KS

[GJCAT427]

My last shop truck, 82 F250 , had a 400 in it from the factory. Drove the hell out of it and towed outrageous loads on a 25' fifthwheel. The oil pressure dropped to 20pounds running and would drop to 7 pounds at idle. I finally decided to build a new 400 for it. I put new pistons rings brgs etc in it. A new rV cam and a 4bbl manifold and 1850 Holley in it. About the same time Hot Rod had a buildup  on a 400 written. I did basicly the same build up before the article ran. It ran quite well. Had plenty of torque and pulled the trailer quite well. Only problem mileage. Best it got was 10 empty and 5-7 towing if I kept my foot out of it.. When I got my 95 powerstroke I thought I died and went to heaven. I still have the 95 and wouldn`t trade it for the world.

[Falcon67]

>Cleavelands apparently suffer from detonation and oiling issues.

Total bullshit.  People say the same things for the big block 429/460 engines - oh wait, nobody says that.  Except they are nearly the same and share the same type of oiling system. 

The key to running an open chamber 2V head is to put the piston right on the deck to promote the max swirl you can get in the chamber. Then size the chamber and/or some dish in the piston to match your design CR. 

The 351C in our Mustang has well over 3500 drag passes.  6000 min RPM each pass, shift light is set at 6400.  Oiling mods are extensive - oh wait, they are not.  Smooth the passage from the filter to the pump, blue print the pump, make sure lifter bores are to spec, control your main and rod clearances.  I run .0025 on mains and rods, see 72 psi pressure cold with 30wt, 35~40 hot, 60 at 6500 RPM using Melling HV pumps.  If you run closer to stock clearances, then do not use an HV pump.  Forget any "high pressure spring" - if clearances are controlled properly there is no need.  I run use 8 quart low profile Milodon pans and crank scraper.  The bearings come out looking nice every 3-4 years. 

See http://www.tmeyerinc.com/ for all kinds of good 400 parts.

I used Howards hydro lifters in the last update for that motor and no issues so far that I've noted.  The "restrictors" can be used to just control the oil feed to the cam bearings, you can leave out the #5 crossover to let oil travel up to the left side gallery.  The oil first runs through the right side gallery, so the lifter bores on that side need to be correct. 

If you want an engine with oiling issues, go find a Mopar or a Buick.   

The Pantera article has some points, most of it aimed at road race conditions IMHO.  Example:

"I also expect the car will be subjected to high speed cornering, braking and accelerating; why else spend the money on such a powerful motor? "
LOL, not on a drag strip.  High speed cornering or heavy braking means you're crashing.

351C, 1970 2V open heads (75 up have a bad exhaust port for performance), ported, 230/236 hydro flat tappet cam, flat top 9.5:1 made about 400 HP, ran a 3000lb car to 7.80s 1/8 drags.

[Lowrider]

I built a 351M using a 400 crankshaft, with ported set of 2V heads, Holley Street Dominator intake with mild gasket match, Holley 600, headers, and good dual exhaust with crossover pipe, Comp Cams H268 camshaft with matching springs, etc., hardened pushrods, guide plates, roller rocker arms with rocker arm bosses milled for screw in studs, and I was able to tow a 6000# trailer with my '78 all over the USA.  Would rev past 6000 rpm with ease, but not much to be gained by doing so.  Very strong and took the abuse of two sons finishing high school as a daily driver.  Had 4 speed OD manual transmission that was supposedly junk, but lived quite well as a tow transmission, and daily driver.  Joe-JDC

Built a 400 out of my 351m for my 79 Ranchero and it turned out real good. I mostly use it to haul water (live in the desert) so it's mostly stock w/a 2v carb. Balanced the whole thing and advanced the cam 2*. Runs great and at 40mph it's about the smoothest engine I've ever built.

[machoneman]

Chris (Falcon) has posted his engine stuff and car on other C specific sites and it's great tutorial stuff on what doesn't need to be done!

In fact, I have believed for a long time now (30+years) that most of the flat-out wrong statements of Cleveland oiling came from the many stories of yore published in HR, CC, SS&DI and more rags that covered PRO-STOCK 351C's!

And yes these engines did get extensive oiling, cylinder wall, head, cam and other changes BECAUSE they were Pro-Stock engines. Heck, running well over 700 hp with iron heads, exhaust port plates, OEM blocks at 8,500 to 9,000 rpm...of course they needed modifications. But as Chris has well documented, for lesser engines just about zero changes other than cleanup and tolerance checking is needed to the fine stock oiling system.

What's really weird though is the near total lack of focus on the Cleveland engine's  real issue: thin cylinder walls. I've had my share and it is dicey at only .030 as the Ford thin-wall design, unlike the 351W blocks, didn't do the OEM block any favors. On any overbored 351C, a sonic test is mandatory as often the non-thrust areas, especially on #5 back cylinder wall (firewall side) for some reason is mighty, mighty thin on overbore. Torque plate honing on a thin one will show weird gray shadows in the hone area, betraying thinness and likely wall failure at higher hp levels. 

[machoneman]

Chinese lantern effect.

Heck, I went the the Wayback Machine to find my old post from 2003 on the 351C effect of thin walls. Hard to believe that my post is now 13 years old!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1061862404/%22Chinese+Lantern%22-

[garyv]

Why don't you just swap a 460 into it and forget the 351/400M.
Personally I think they are a waste of time and money when you consider what little is to be gained by swapping in a 400 crank etc.
I did this with my 78 F 150 years ago and was the best thing to happen to that truck. I still have it today.
Gets better mileage and pulls like a tank when needed.
The swap is easily done with a set of motor mounts and has same bolt pattern as the 351M.
You will need some brackets for power steering etc.
garyv

[Falcon67]

>real issue: thin cylinder walls.

Yep, that's the big one.  The D0xx block I ran for two years at the 500 HP level developed 5 cracked cylinders.  Plugs stayed clean, water stayed oily LOL.

[FE Jonny]

Thanks for the input guys, haven't been on much, broken arm and spending at lot of time over at the FSB forum. I kinda wanted to stay with the M block due to the uniqueness and keep it sort of original. Kinda like the FE I am building you just do not see them anymore. I do love the Cleaveland heads, back in the day before small block heads were available we did Cleveland head swaps on 351w blocks. I was looking at the T-MOBILE Meyer stroker kit with some aftermarket heads but if I can polish the chambers and get away with 8.5:1 I would be a happy camper. The base engine I am starting with is a 78 351M I pulled from the JY, I am doing a rollerized low 1st and 2nd C6 with Hugh's Kolene plates behind it. It's gonna be a DD so want it to last with daily use. I have heard horror stories of the back mains and rods spinning so I wanted to address any issues without finding out the hard way. As far as induction goes a basic Cleaveland air gap RPM Eddy, Price plates and Eddy 800 Thunder Off Road are my plan. Was thinking a canton oil receiver tied into the rear main sender port might not be at bad idea with 25 psi actuation. I was planning also the basic alignment of oil journals for the pump, heads and can bearings with no restrictors. The engine in there now runs good but has over 100,000 miles on it and rattles without some 15-40 Rotella in there so I believe I am on borrowed time on that one. I did not realize the walls were an issue so maybe a cryogenic treatment of the block would not hurt for 300 bucks as extra insurance.