Author Topic: Cam selection for EFI?  (Read 11622 times)

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Pentroof

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Cam selection for EFI?
« on: April 15, 2011, 07:04:28 PM »
I will be converting my 428 to EFI using the FAST EZ setup and port injectors on a Victor intake. I have been reading about a lot of other builds and am now starting to wonder if I should re-think my cam selection. I had planned on using a Comp 294S. The information I am gathering now suggests a wider lobe separation angle because the EFI does not require the tight angle for draw at low throttle. Makes sense to me. Anyone have any input or can you point me in a direction to better educate myself?

Thanks.


jayb

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 10:37:55 PM »
I think you could go more radical on the cam and still retain pretty good idle and low speed characteristics, because the EFI will really help you there.  On the other hand I don't think the FAST EZ EFI includes ignition control, and that is a big part of getting low speed idle and driveabiity out of the combination.  So I wouldn't step up too much on the cam, unless you can somehow integrate timing control with the EFI system.

The 294S is a really good all around performance cam, and there would be nothing wrong with running that cam in the engine.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Pentroof

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 08:02:29 AM »
I think you could go more radical on the cam and still retain pretty good idle and low speed characteristics, because the EFI will really help you there.  On the other hand I don't think the FAST EZ EFI includes ignition control, and that is a big part of getting low speed idle and driveabiity out of the combination.  So I wouldn't step up too much on the cam, unless you can somehow integrate timing control with the EFI system.

The 294S is a really good all around performance cam, and there would be nothing wrong with running that cam in the engine.

Jay, what about scares of unburned fuel in the exhaust stream with closer LSA effecting the feedback and leaning out the charge?


jayb

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2011, 12:57:04 PM »
I guess I just haven't seen an issue with that.  I've run cams with overlaps from 108 to 116 with the EFI systems I've run, and I've always been able to tune out any fuel issues with the fuel map.  If I understand your comment correctly, you are saying that less LSA may affect the oxygen sensor reading.  But I have never tuned strictly by the oxygen sensor or the A/F number on the dyno; I've always tuned for horsepower first.  Some combinations want to run leaner or richer than others; you can't always target the same A/F number and get the ideal result.

Of course, I haven't done a back to back comparison using the same cam lobes with different overlaps though, so maybe there is something there.  That sounds like another good dyno test; get several cams with the same lobes, and different lobe separation angles, and run them back to back on the dyno. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2011, 07:03:34 PM »
From speaking with F.A.S.T. the EZefi will "work" best with cams the produce greater than 12inhg at idle ,10 will work but you may(most likely) get some rolling idle,8 maybe as good as the carb you replaced.
The problem is the lack of timing control with the FAST system.
Long duration cams do send unburned fuel out the exhaust,the O2 sensor see's this as LEAN.A "miss" also shows as LEAN to the O2 sensor,because of that the FAST ez is always behind,mixture wise,at idle.Rich-Lean-rich-lean. Greater idle timing helps allot but needs to be pulled out under load.
Lance H

Chad D

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 01:37:39 AM »
I dunno if the EZ EFI supports the injector opening retard parameter... but the XFI does.  Might be worth a look, that parameter is used sometimes where valve overlap issues occur.  Delaying injector opening can also require bigger injectors or higher rail pressure to deliver enough fuel.  YMMV.

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/valve-overlap-5768.html

Barry_R

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2012, 05:44:04 AM »
EZ-EFI works pretty well, but it is a simplistic target driven feedback system and does not allow much active tunng.  It always chases A/F targets that you provide using the O2 sensor data.  So the combination has to be somewhat street oriented/milder in order to get good behavior, and you are always in "learning mode".  It does not get into its feedback loop until at least 180 degrees water temperature.  And it takes considerable time at a given load/RPM before the corrections "stick".

EZ-EFI does not interface with the ignition system at all other than getting an RPM trigger.  Originally I thought this was a bigger deal than it seems to be - good ignition systems do not appear to be a problem, and much of the time the desired timing end curve is one readily attained without much management.

The XFi and Big Stuff systems are active tuning - you can rely on feedback, but you also have the ability to go in and alter fuel and timing at any point in the map to meet a power or performance parameter need.  Much, much better in every concievable way - but a lot more wires and complexity - and cost.

My427stang

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2012, 08:58:56 AM »
I don't think its too much overlap, but you are right, at some point narrow LSA and duration puts overlap at a point that at low rpm things are pretty "wet" at the sensor and you can do some things to make it a bit less fussy.  These aren't in order, I typed as I thought up things that I did to tune my SEFI more to a point that it's pretty much new car like now

Look at FAST's directions or call them to see what they say, but one thing to consider is O2 sensor placement.  With normal long tube headers, usually the cleanest place for the O2 sensor is the collector or the reducer.  However, this can be too far back and at low RPM or idle the data from the O2 sensor is slightly delayed and does correlate to the specific event that the computer THINKS its talking about

It's more of an issue on SEFI installs, but its always better to put in in the right place as software assumes a certain time between a cylinder firing and how it affects the O2 sensor.  If you put it farther back, unless you have a way to adjust for the lag, idle and low rpm can suffer (a little, this isn't critical "wont run kind of stuff, it really depends on exhaust flow, pipe size, etc)

The Powerjection, EEC-IV, and a GM based hodgepodge I did a long time ago, all liked the O2 sensor less than 18 inches away from the exhaust port (more or less), with some narrow band installs recommending as close as 9 inches from the exhaust valve.  That usually puts it in a primary tube though, so in the end, just try to get it where the manufacturer wants it, or as far forward as possible.

I actually put mine way back, opposite of what I am telly you here, but in the EEC-IV setup I use, I can manage O2 sensor delay and bias.  It still would be better farther forward, but the software gets it 99% there

Another thing to do is really take time to understand how an idle air control valve works on your system, then adjust correctly.  They are all a little different, but when adjusted right, the computer doesn't need to make drastic changes at lat idle or transition.  There are two things to think about, mechanical adjustment of throttle plates and ECM control of the IAC valve.  When you do it right, the IAC will adjust whatever you need it to, if you muscle through and force it to try do more, or ask it to do less than its supposed to, idle will suffer

Finally, if you have the ability to adjust your injector timing, I can help you with a table that will tell you the best time to fire the injector based on your camshaft events, desired duty cycle, target a/f mixture and a few other inputs that I can't remember, let me know. 

I did adjust mine significantly.  However, note that it doesn't do much above about 2500 rpm as the injectors tend to be semi-continuous and sort of "fog" the plenum, it does however make a difference at low end and idle, essentially making sure the injector doesn't fire during the higher lift overlap periods.  Once you get off idle, you could switch injector wires around and not even notice it, even in a SEFI system, but at idle and low rpm, it can make a big difference

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Chad D

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2012, 09:51:54 AM »
@My427stang, which EEC-IV setup are you using?  It sounds like you've got awesome tunability, I'm in the investigation stage right now for a SFI setup.  I'm considering an attempt at propane injection, so max tuning options is a good thing.

My427stang

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2012, 10:26:17 AM »
Mine started as a Mass-flo setup that I bought used.  Mass-flo uses a A9L computer with a rider chip that really only changes firing order and injector size (a significant shortfall IMHO), a Mallory TFI distributor with all Ford EEC-IV internals, and all Ford parts except for the throttle body and MAF, which originally was a very early GM LS MAF

I modified it with a Quarterhorse chip, which allows all the ignition and fuel events to be  tuned/logged using the program Binary Editor.  The QH setup came with a second program, EEC Analyzer, which will give you recommendations based on your logs.

Also, I run a more modern higher flow LS Chevy MAF (which is soon going away for a slot style ford MAF which will flow much more), relocated the IAT sensor, and added a WB O2 sensor that is logged through the former EGR circuit, it allows me to log my O2 more accurately and combine the info with what the ECM is seeing for better tuning.  I also use the TFI to trigger an Accel CD box.

Some other tweaks were really more mechanical, some porting on the intake, and a little different fuel feed design with a damper that I think keeps things a little more stable, but I haven't logged pressures. 

Overall I am VERY happy with it, but two things  wish it would do. 
1 - I wish it used the WB O2 sensor for info, but the EEC-IV just wont do it
2 - in its current form I still think the MAF is limiting airflow, I can fix it, but the Speed Density systems just dont have to worry about that
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

My427stang

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2012, 10:31:27 AM »
BTW - I am in Papillion, NE, if you ever want to see it, let me know.

Tomorrow AM, assuming it isn't raining, from about 700-900 AM I will be at Cars and Coffee, 156th and Maple at the Hyvee parking lot.  Probably a 45 minute drive for you, but its a cool little show and you can check out the old bomb along with probably 50 other hot rods continuously coming and going
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Chad D

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2012, 11:11:15 AM »
Cool, I'd love to see it.  I'll be driving my black 1964 Galaxie, 6 county plates.  How will I identify you?

My427stang

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2012, 12:40:45 PM »
Black 70 Mustang with a Boss 9 scoop, only one there....meet me at my car or I'll meet you by yours.  My name is Ross.

I tend to not go far from the car other than to buy a coffee or hit the head :) 

In the odd chance you see two black 70s, mine will be the one covered with bugs

« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 12:42:53 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Chad D

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Re: Cam selection for EFI?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 02:05:07 PM »
*snort*  Old bomb...  :o whatev.  Very nice.  See you there.