Author Topic: Disease please, I'll take two.  (Read 83805 times)

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turbohunter

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2016, 11:36:41 AM »
Thanks Jay, that would bug the heck out of me on a street car. So the initial cranking of the engine on start up doesn't prime the pump? I assume that because you have plumbing to get to the pump from the pan and the pump being above the pan the you loose prime upon shut off. Is there a way to defeat that like lowering the pump? Realizing of course you may run out of room between the pump and the street. What about a frame rail pump location ( but then how would you drive the pump ).
Bumming that I've been working all weekend so haven't been able to work on it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 11:38:21 AM by turbohunter »
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


jayb

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2016, 01:16:09 PM »
The external pump will prime as long as its got some residual oil in it.  But if it sits for a while, like a couple weeks, that residual oil will drain away, and then cranking the engine won't prime the pump.  If the pump is below the oil level in the pan, its not a problem because it will have oil in it all the time, but on my Mach 1 I had to position it above the oil level, so it was a problem.  I started the engine once without thinking about this and ran it for about 60 seconds with no oil pressure, which of course is scary, and in fact I need to pull the pan and check the bearings before I race it again.  Still has good oil pressure after that incident, but I sure can't trust the bearings at this point.

An Accusump is an easy way to solve this problem, just seal up a couple quarts in the Accusump prior to shutting the engine off, then open it back up right before starting, and there are no issues.  But between the startup issue, the extra plumbing, and the oil blowing out of the breather, I just don't see the advantage of an external pump anymore. 
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427Fastback

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2016, 11:49:01 AM »
Not to much thought about it, just know I'll have to go a bit bigger and modify the core support to accept.
And fans. :D

On the 66 the stock rad support was sectioned and the middle part of a 67/68 support was used.I then modified stock FE rad mounts to fit.Also used a oem style BB rad with stock hoses and shroud.....

I might add..this engine is pretty stock other than a 268H cam and roller rockers..



1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

67gt350

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2016, 03:39:30 PM »
 Hey, just a question for 427Fastback..How many 68 Deluxe dash pieces do you need for one car?!?! Lol..

427Fastback

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2016, 06:37:02 PM »
Hey, just a question for 427Fastback..How many 68 Deluxe dash pieces do you need for one car?!?! Lol..

Funny...I didn't even notice them...I have been collecting oem deluxe dash parts for over ten years now.Plan was to use the best that I could find in the 68 when it comes back from paint (3-4 weeks now)Then I would sell off the rest..Did the same with radio delete panels and heater delete stuff...

1968 Repo deluxe dash parts are so bad Stevie Wonder could tell the difference..

Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

67gt350

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2016, 07:27:14 PM »
Over the years I have done the same collecting the best for a couple of cars. It made me laugh because I was recently on ebay just looking and saw that the center AC registers were almost over $300 each! I have a camera case, 2 brushed aluminum, and a woodgrain-plus all the side pieces and the dashes to go with them. Good luck with your 68 it looks like you have collected some nice NOS pieces.

67gt350

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 07:33:03 PM »
100% on the mark about repo stuff..braille all the way..lol Only stuff that I like is from Scott Drake if I have to.

427Fastback

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 11:05:08 PM »
100% on the mark about repo stuff..braille all the way..lol Only stuff that I like is from Scott Drake if I have to.

Don't mean to step on the thread....but NOS stuff to me is a disease as well..I have boxes apon boxes of NOS stuff for the 68.Some deluxe dash pcs as noticed and I even found a NOS (primer brown) drivers door..As I live up in BC (as in some US states) even finding something useable that mother nature has not tortured can be a problem..Repo is the last resort and I agree on the Scott Drake parts..
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

turbohunter

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 11:12:28 PM »
LOL
Nice job of bringing it back to the disease aspect.
You get it.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


turbohunter

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2016, 04:25:41 PM »
Well then, today has been an exercise in self restraint. I was going to say futility but it's not, I made a lot of headway.
Started the day by trying to figure out how I could get more oil pump room.
I called Doug at Precision and asked him what I could do to get more pan room. He at first said that a standard pump is 1/4 inch shorter than a high volume pump. He also counter sinks the bolts on the bottom of the pump. Then he said I could take an 1/8th off the flange. Then I asked him if I could actually cut the section out between the flange and the body of the pump. :o He thought about it for a minute then said it's certainly doable, IF, you can get it welded back together and IF you can deal with the drive shaft mis alignment as well as the gallery. Obviously you would have to re size the shaft.
Well, knowing that I have a disease I started thinking about how to get that done.
I went back over to the car and started to see what I would be doing to myself if indeed I could shove the engine back as far as I wanted. I was talking with my friend John (who I am renting space from) about it and we were starting to add up all the problems I would make for myself. One of the biggest was that I was starting to affect my drive line geometry. If I push the engine back it forces the trans down unless I cut the floor and raise the tunnel. Not to mention the oil pump rebuild and the possible problems that may bring up with the off center shaft even if I get it welded back together correctly.
I have also gone over the external pump scenario over and over and really don't want to deal with it in a street car.
So I put the pan back together as it's already pretty tight around the pump. Also if I was to modify the pan I don't know how the pickup would be affected (would there be enough room for all that piping).
I started fitting the engine and trans back in the car and saw that I could pick up a lot of room by rebuilding the racks exterior tubes to run around the pan (see pics).
So the upshot of this whole exercise is I believe I have reached the point of diminishing returns and I learned a lot. I set the engine back in the car centered it. Measured once, twice, three times (it's got about an inch and a half or two set back, however that's a bs statement because there really is no stock location in a '66 for an FE) then asked John to make me some tubular mounts. He's a hell of a lot better welder than I am. So hopefully the next update will be with the engine mounted in the car.

This is the section of the pump I was thinking of taking out. I could pick up almost an inch, but ……


This is how much clearance I am ending up with.


Back in
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


turbohunter

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2016, 08:18:55 AM »
So now that I've slept on it.
All I really had to do was lower the rack and re route the exterior tubing on the rack and the old oil pan would've worked perfectly with out having to cut it. Now I know ::). But it's kinda fun to try to push it.
Did I get all the set back I wanted? Not really but when I finally can get an aluminum block that will lop a hundred pounds off the front anyway. And taking more setback would create more problems down the road.
Ok, lesson learned. I'm good with it.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


427Fastback

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2016, 12:35:22 PM »
Looks to me like your rack is already sitting on the lower a-arms.No place for it to go..Also moving the rack up or down affects your bump steer.
I had to put spacers on my heim joints (no tie rod ends) to correct the bump steer..

1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

turbohunter

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2016, 12:52:21 PM »
Yup, that's as low as I dare take it and that's at full droop so all is well. That's just the boot not the rod that's touching the A arm.
I actually helped a maybe future problem at full suspension compression. The tie rod was awfully close to the frame.
Not to worried about bump steer. With the small amount I moved it I can certainly fix it later if it becomes a problem.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


turbohunter

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2016, 01:01:48 PM »
Hey Cory, I'm curious how you spec' out your front shocks and springs. And are you happy with them?
I'm in the middle of figuring out what I'll be running right now.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


427Fastback

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Re: Disease please, I'll take two.
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2016, 04:18:57 PM »
My rack (427 car) is just as close to the a-arms as yours.The boots actually sit on the through bolts..My shocks are QA1 adjustable ones..When I had stock suspension I always ran 625lb springs.As the shock and spring are roughly in the same point pivot wise I just guessed (kinda) and bought 550-575lb springs...Springs are cheap so I wont be upset if I have to change them..

I haven't driven the car yet with the new suspension..I am not due to get it back from the paint shop for a month..

1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up