Lifters

[stubbie]

Hi Guys new to the forum. I joined recently as I'm anticipating having to rebuild the 390 FE in my 64 Thunderbird at some point in it's life and I thought this would be the best place for tips and information. Anyway I also belong to a Tbird forum and there is a guy there who has gone through 3 sets of lifters in a newly rebuilt 390 and I was wondering if anyone can give me/him any insights into what he is maybe doing wrong with the install of the lifters or maybe the engine rebuild itself. You can read the forum here. Thanks in advance for any tips. Phil.
http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19890&page=6
For anyone who would like to read more there is also some engine rebuild and lifter comments in this link.
http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=13598&highlight=steves+ride

[Cyclone Joe]

I'm on board that there was crud downstream that was plugging the lifters.  If the filter goes into bypass mode, whatever the reason, the pump will push crud that will clog the lifters.  Personally, I would have drilled out a few to see the problem first.  I also wonder if he's doing his push-rod adjustment right.  I'll go back and read it again, but there was something that caught my attention.

Joe

[stubbie]

Thanks Joe. I realise it's probably a bit of a marathon read if you haven't been following on from the beginning but I think he needs some help with this from someone else outside of the forum itself. Thanks again for your insight.

[fryedaddy]

i did not read the story but do you think he might have set the valve adjustment with the lifters crushed instead of pumped up.that would maybe kill the lifters.just a thought.

[jayb]

I think this ^^^ may be part of the problem.  I don't have much experience with hydraulic rollers, but all the hydraulic flat tappets I've used over the years are set with the plunger near the top of the travel, rather than near the bottom.  I'm also confused by what he is claiming about the travel of the plunger in the hydraulic lifters; it should be a lot more than what he is suggesting, again based on my own experience with hydraulic flat tappets.  Do hydraulic rollers use a reduced internal travel or something?

I don't think he's got an issue where crud is getting into the lifters.  I've never had that happen, with a stock motor or a high performance one.  Think of all the stock motors that have been abused and had crud get into them with no ill effects on the lifters.  Just doesn't make sense to me.  The only lifters I've ever seen stuck were on really high-mile engines, with a lot of varnish built up inside, and it always seems to occur with one lifter only, not most of them.

I'd be looking at valve springs, piston to valve clearance, and the potential that the valves were floated at some point and damaged the lifters that way.  But there is no doubt that the way he is describing the situation, it is hard to figure what the issue is...

[Cyclone Joe]

I went back to the site and re-read his lash setting description.  I'm not 100% sure I could discern what he's doing, but it doesnt sound right.  Is there any way he can post his step-by-step preload process?

From that site:
"I'm signed up for a car show on Saturday so really want to get this fixed. I set all the valves to 3/8 turn from the bottom, started the engine and the noise was worse than before. So I tightened all up 1/8 turn, the noise was a little better, test drove for about 5 miles and couldn't stand the sound of it. "

From COMP's site:
When installing a hydraulic cam, lifters or rocker arms, establishing the correct lifter pre-load improves both performance and engine life. Insufficient pre-load will create excessive valve train noise and wear. Excessive pre-load will cause rough idling and low manifold vacuum, and can even lead to severe engine damage. With an adjustable valve train, proceed as follows:
Install the pushrods and rocker arms. Be sure the pushrods are seated correctly in the lifter and rocker arm. Turn the engine over in the direction of rotation until the EXHAUST pushrod just begins to move upward, opening the valve. Now adjust the INTAKE rocker of that cylinder. Carefully tighten the nut on the intake rocker while spinning the pushrod with your fingertips. You will feel a slight resistance in the pushrod when you have taken up all of the clearance. This is “zero lash.” Turn the adjusting nut to the specified pre-load – typically 1/4-3/4 of a turn, but this will vary based on the lifter number.

 My guess is that he's not doing it right based upon what I've read.  Specifically, what does he mean by 'bottom' (easy now), and by 3/8's of a turn?  Is he collapsing the lifter all the way down, then going another 3/8ths?  Or is there still slop and the pushrod can spin really easily?  I'd still open up a few failed lifters though; either way you'll see it gummed up or collapsed from either of the two failure modes. 
Joe

[stubbie]

Joe I will see if I can get him to post his preload process step by step. Cheers 

[stubbie]

Hi Joe
Here is his preload process. Thanks

"Each manufacturer has different instructions for installation.

    Lunati: Do NOT wash in solvent, wipe the parts off, and coat the outside with oil.
    Crane: Clean with mineral spirits and coat lightly with oil.
    Comp: Soak for 30 minutes in mineral spirits, then coat the outside with oil.


For pre-load adjustment, I find base circle of the cam at cylinder #1 by turning the crankshaft by hand (normal rotation). When the exhaust valve begins to open, the intake is at base circle. Wiggle the pushrod up-down while slowly tightening the adjuster. When the pushrod clearance is gone, that is zero lash. Tighten 1/2 turn more while watching that the rocker arm does not move. At this point I usually turn more to find total travel available, then loosen, then reset to 1/2 turn past zero lash. Then tighten the lock nut.

Then I repeat the process in firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8.

Next I adjust the exhaust valves. When the intake valve begins to close, the exhaust is at base circle. Set preload the same as the intake."

FE Valve Locations


 

[jayb]

That process sounds correct to me.

[fryedaddy]

when he said he tightens them down to find the total travel available,dont that crush them completely down,could that damage them from the get go.

[blykins]

What oil is he running?

[Cyclone Joe]

At this point, he needs to cut a few open.  He's either crushing it after he goes beyond the 1/2 turn and it takes a bit of fatigue time to break them, or its crud.  Either way, the path to finding a solution will be found within the lifter itself. 

Photos of the failed lifters would be helpful, as would the top and the bottom.

Joe

[stubbie]

Thanks Joe I'll pass that on and see if I can get pic of the lifters when taken apart.
This is the oil he used " I went with Kevin's recommendation to use Joe Gibbs BR1, which is a 15W-50 break in oil from the start. After a few hundred miles I switched to Joe Gibbs HR1, also a 15W-50 oil. "

[blykins]

I didn't take the time to read the thread from the other forum.....but is it a problem where the lifters are just not pumping up? 

If so, I would change that oil immediately.  A 50W oil doesn't belong in a hydraulic roller lifter like we use in our FE's.  He needs to be running a max of 30W when the oil is hot.  5W-30, 10W-30, etc. 

[Heo]

Is the block drilled for  hydraulic lifters?
Some 390s are not