Author Topic: thoughts on FITECH EFI  (Read 49565 times)

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JamesonRacing

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2016, 06:54:46 PM »
You guys have forced me to think all this through LOL!  I'm putting together a list that I'll post here sometime in the next day or so, that will hopefully make things clearer...

Great!  Looking forward to what you think it would take to install a sequential EFI on a Victor intake.  The FAST options seem to address port injection but only offer bank-fire rather than real sequential.

Just finishing the install of a Quick Fuel QFI-500 system on my 418FE. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 07:01:16 PM by JamesonRacing »
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2016, 07:58:19 PM »
So, this tends to look kind of complicated, especially when all the options are considered.  What I've put together in this post is two EFI systems, a "Street" version (inexpensive) and a "Race" version (expensive).  The race version is essentially identical to what is on my 585" SOHC.  We'll look at the street version first.

The street system assumes the use of a factory or MSD electronic distributor, and a coil (with or without MSD) to generate spark.  It is also assumed to be a bank or batch fire system, not full sequential.  Below is a basic wiring diagram for one of these systems.  It is also shown on page 14 of the manual at this link:  http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf



On this diagram, the connector shown with all the wires plugs into the Megasquirt 2 EFI box.  This is set up as a bank-fire system; the fuel injectors are arranged in two banks, one of which fires once per crankshaft rotation.  For our engines we would wire up four injectors for bank 1, and four for bank 2.  There are only three external sensors required, the air temperature sensor, coolant temperature sensor, and throttle position sensor.  A MAP sensor (Manifold Air Pressure) is also required, but it is built into the Megasquirt 2 EFI box; you just have to run a vacuum line from the engine to the EFI box.  The PWM idle valve shown on the drawing can be ignored; you can just use the idle screw on the throttle body to set the idle.  Also, a wideband O2 sensor is shown connected to the Megasquirt 2 EFI box, but this only has to be connected if you are logging data from the O2 sensor, or using the O2 sensor to provide feedback to the Megasquirt, so that the Megasquirt can try to adjust the fuel delivery to maintain a particular air/fuel ratio. 

Here is a table showing the part requirements for this system, including links to all the required parts:



Couple of notes here.  The wiring harness has to be assembled by the builder; this is just soldering the right wires to the right connectors.  Just follow the schematic.  The ignition system is assumed to be a stock Ford or MSD vane type distributor, with a coil. MSDs can also be triggered this way. The distributor wires connect into the crank sensor wires shown on the wiring diagram.  The fuel rails shown in the list are Edelbrock parts designed to fit a Victor EFI manifold.  The throttle body comes with the throttle position sensor, so you just have to connect the three wires from the EFI box to the connector on the throttle body.  The air temperature sensor should mount in the air cleaner, or some other place where the air comes into the engine, but not under the throttle body.  The coolant temperature sensor has to mount in a coolant passage, just like a sensor for a water temp gauge.  Finally, the software to make this work is a free download called Tuner Studio and Mega-log viewer.  The EFI system will log all the data it collects, and the software allows you to view the logs on a laptop computer, plus make changes to the programming of the EFI system to richen or lean the mixture, change the timing, adjust accelerator pump shot, etc. etc.

In addition to this, a couple relays and some fuses are required for proper system operation.  See the wiring diagram.

Parts for the race system are shown below.  This is a full sequential, distributorless system, using a crank trigger and a cam sensor, a 36-1 tooth wheel for the crank sensor, and individual coil packs for each cylinder.  No distributor or MSD is required, but if you are running a factory oil pump you would have to use a partial distributor to fill the hole in the intake and drive the pump.



Some notes on this system:  the crank and cam sensors are magnetic sensors; they work by looking for a steel or iron tooth on a gear wheel, or some other protruding steel or iron feature.  The crank sensor requires a 36-1 wheel on the crank.  This is a steel wheel with 36 teeth, one for each 10 degrees, except that one tooth is missing (hence 36-1).  Lots of Ford vehicles have come with them so they are plentiful in the junkyards and on ebay, but they would have to be adapted to the FE.  I ended up machining my own version.  The cam sensor can be put through the timing cover of the FE, and a bolt can be screwed into the top gear at the right spot, so that the cam sensor detects the bolt head as it goes by.  The cam sensor tells the EFI system that the next time a TDC of #1 occurs, it is on the firing stroke.  This is required for full sequential fuel injection.  The MS3-Pro drives the coils directly, based on the inputs from the cam and crank sensors.

More info later...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Nightmist66

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2016, 09:19:19 PM »
Just finishing the install of a Quick Fuel QFI-500 system on my 418FE.

Looks great David! Are the rad. hoses silicone? Where could I find those and how well does the bottom one fit?
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

turbohunter

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2016, 09:27:38 PM »
LOL
Could you possibly make it any easier for us Jay ;D ;D ;D
BTW Thank you
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


JamesonRacing

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2016, 10:29:43 PM »
Just finishing the install of a Quick Fuel QFI-500 system on my 418FE.

Looks great David! Are the rad. hoses silicone? Where could I find those and how well does the bottom one fit?

Yes, silicone hoses.  Top fits well, I had to use the belt sander on the PRW pump lower outlet to fit the bottom.  Seem to fit car with no issues. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271999458741?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

JamesonRacing

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2016, 10:32:25 PM »
Jay - on the sequential fuel injection, would a dual-sync distributor work in place of the eight separate coils and the 36-1 wheel?
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2016, 10:40:52 PM »
Yes it would David. You could also upgrade the street system to an MS3-Pro or MS3X EFI box, go to the dual sync distributor, and then everything else is the same for a full sequential system.  That's one of the things that makes it hard to explain these systems, there are so many options; you can mix and match so much different stuff.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Nightmist66

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2016, 11:22:40 PM »
Yes, silicone hoses.  Top fits well, I had to use the belt sander on the PRW pump lower outlet to fit the bottom.  Seem to fit car with no issues. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271999458741?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Thanks for the link. I snatched the last one they had. ;D
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2016, 12:05:43 PM »
Here's a little more on this.  The Innovate Motorsports O2 sensor setup is probably the most cost effective one on the market right now, at least as far as I know.  $189 including the electronics, wideband Bosch O2 sensors, and peripherals.  The output of this sensor and controller will plug right into the Megasquirt EFI boxes, and also can drive a gauge in the car; gauges are also sold on the Innovate Motorsports web site.  Link to the O2 sensor information is below:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc2.php

Regarding the software on these systems, you basically open up Tuner Studio and fill in some basic forms that tells the EFI system what to expect from the ignition system you are using, the size of the engine, the size of the fuel injectors, etc.  Once you start the engine, you can run it through various tuning conditions while logging the data from the O2 sensor, and make adjustments to the tuning maps for fuel and timing based on what the data logs say.  For example, let's say you just start the engine and idle it at 1000 RPM.  On the VE map, which is where you adjust the fuel that the injectors deliver, there will be a highlighted square that shows where on the map the engine is currently operating.  Looking at the O2 sensor output, let's say it says 12.0:1.  You are targeting 14.7:1, so at 12:1 the engine is running rich.  You click on the square that is highlighted and decrease the number in that box.  As you do so, the O2 sensor starts reading leaner.  You just keep decreasing the number until you get the O2 sensor reading to 14.7 or so, and then you are tuned at that idle setting.

One thing though is that for a higher performance engine, where you have a big cam with a lot of overlap or something like that, the engine may want to run a lot richer.  So, as you start moving the number in the box around, you can listen to the motor.  If it starts to struggle or idle more roughly at the higher A/F numbers, you just bring it back into a range where it is running well.  I've had idle A/Fs of 12 or 12.5 be the best ones for some of the engines I've run on EFI.  This is where a completely tunable EFI system, where you build the VE map yourself, has an advantage over the self learning ones.  The self learning systems are always targeting a specific A/F number, which may not be right for your engine.  With a completely programmable system like the Megasquirt, you can account for the variations caused by low vacuum at idle, wild cams, etc.  Plus if you lock the advance out of your distributor, you can totally control the ignition advance at any engine speed or vacuum level.  When you look at the timing with a timing light it will be rock solid when the EFI box controls the timing, not bouncing back and forth a few degrees like you often see with a centrifugally advanced distributor.  These characteristics make it easier to get big cams to idle down and behave on the street, while still maintaining top end performance.

I have an MS3-Pro setup on the shelf that I will be installing on my dyno sometime in the near future.  When I do it I will go through a step by step tutorial of exactly how to hook everything up, to try to make this easier to understand.  I hope some of this is helpful for you guys interested in EFI - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

turbohunter

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2016, 01:36:04 PM »
Really cool of you to explain this stuff.
I figure I'm prolly not the only guy out here that thought this stuff was voodoo.
Thanks again.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


gdaddy01

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2016, 01:40:37 PM »
thank you

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2016, 02:20:33 PM »
Really cool of you to explain this stuff.
I figure I'm prolly not the only guy out here that thought this stuff was voodoo.
Thanks again.

It is not that hard.  If you have a laptop, you can do EFI.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Bolted to Floor

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2016, 09:15:28 PM »
Jay,
Thanks for putting the lists together. I've always wanted fuel injection on a 2x4 manifold, and it could be doable in a price range I can afford. Not sure which manifold would be best, but a plan has to start somewhere, right? 

Did anyone else notice the cheapest parts listed had a GM part number?  ???
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

drdano

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2016, 09:06:15 AM »
Another thanks to Jay for putting these together.  I could see this last page as a sticky on a new child forum for EFI install / tuning would be quite a good resource that folks could contribute and learn from.   :)

JamesonRacing

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2016, 09:38:34 AM »
Jay - thanks for getting the juices flowing on this topic.

So planning a conversion on my 465 FE that has BP pro-ports, 254/260 solid roller, 11:0 CR, TKO600; I have an Edelbrock Victor intake and Accel dual-sync dizzy; does the parts list seem complete for implementing a full sequential system in place of the existing HP1000 carb?  Does the O2 sensor stay in the system providing continuous tuning inputs or do you use it to establish the fuel map and then take it off?  Is there a benefit to running an O2 sensor in each header collector?
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W