Best combination for a N/A 900 HP FE leaving the cammer out of it ?

[TravisRice]

Just interested in what it would take besides a lot of cubic dollars? This would also be coupled to a stick shift in a 3300-3400lb car.

[My427stang]

Are there any wedge heads that flow in the low 400's?  I'd guess that's be the toughest part, then a sheet metal intake and all the cubes it can swallow.

[XR7]

It is doable... there have been a few over that. A friend has one that made 918HP, has Blue Thunder CNC ported high riser heads, 4.375 bor Genesis block, 4.125 billet crank (496CI), aluminum rods, big compression, big roller cam, T&D race rockers, interestingly enough it has a cast HR tunnel wedge intake that is just port matched, 2 - 4150 carbs. The heads flowed right at 400 at .900 lift. It is in a 3000 pound car and 230'ish driver, went 8.78@151 with a 5 speed Liberty in a 66 Fairlane, shifting at 7800 and 8000 through the traps.

The Edelbrock "Pro Port" heads would be another option, with a good CNC program, there have been a few builds using these with similar results, they are medium riser castings but with the ports moved and offset rockers, sheetmetal intakes etc.

I would think you would want a big bore, 4.350 to 4.380 and either a 4.125 or 4.250 stroke crank, either heads and all the rest...

[jayb]

Biggest bore possible, go with a 4.375" or bigger.  I would also go with a 4.375" stroke crank for around 530 cubes.  I would go with aftermaket high riser heads (Blue Thunder if you can find them), one of my high riser intake adapters (available soon, I think...), and a 2X4 sheet metal intake built to fit the adapter.  Alternatively Edelbrock Pro-Ports from somebody like Blair Patrick, who has experience building 900 HP FEs.  Figure on offset rockers and lifters on the intake side to make the port wide (Crower roller lifters, T&D race rockers).  Cam it for peak power in the 7200 range, 7800+ RPM through the traps.

[CaptCobrajet]

We've done two 900+ wedge headed.........Scott Miller's Cougar weighs 3500 lb, and went 9.30's leaving off idle and drove on the street for a week at Drag Week.  We only used .695 lift at the valve...........if it was drag-only, there is more there with .900 lift.  The heads were really meant for high lift, but we wanted it to be reliable.

As far as combo, bigger is better, like the guys said.  I personally don't like to go past 4.350 bore just so the head gasket as a better land between the cylinders.  I do like a 4.350 bore X 4.400 stroke.  Neither one of the 900+ strokers that I have done are that big, for one reason or another, but on a fresh build with that intent, inches are your friend, and 7500 rpm is probably the end of the usable range with strokes like that.  With the heads and tunnel rams I use, the peak power would be just under 7000 rpm.  The 4.400 stroker made a little over 800 ft/lbs......tricky with a stick shift, but doable.

[TravisRice]

Thanks for the input. I know back 12 years or so ago that some of the Pro-nostalgia FE'S were making 830ish with Kuntz Edelbrock heads and 430 ish cubic inches. Now these were 8000 rpm + engines also. Those guys were knocking down 8.80s at 3200 lb with a g-force 4speed. Just wondering how much of an advancement cylinder heads and technology for the FE has come and how easy is it to make that kind of power now.

Ok, now what kind of power do you think can be made at 430-450 cubic inches. All out race motor for NSS on the east coast?

[fekbmax]

I loved those pro nostalgia cars, best drag racing ever.. Dam shame they couldn't keep it alive. Always wanted to put one of those pro nostalgia FE's + Gforce  in my 2400lb full tube chassis and see what it would do. Maybe tickle the high 7second range. The 445CID I'm trying to put together , I'm using alot of that now old school tech. Hard to believe it's been 10 - 12 years..

[Nightmist66]

Here are a couple links to some that Kuntz did. The first made 1000hp with a cast head, the second made 1112hp with a billet head. These videos never get old.

https://youtu.be/OKfWGll-Umw

https://youtu.be/OF6yJscOp58

[ec164]

At the end of second video,...... go to the FE Reunion video showing Paul Adams car, at 3.58 into it, go full screen and turn it up, great sound track Nothing like the sound of a big power FE..............Al

[CaptCobrajet]

Thanks for the input. I know back 12 years or so ago that some of the Pro-nostalgia FE'S were making 830ish with Kuntz Edelbrock heads and 430 ish cubic inches. Now these were 8000 rpm + engines also. Those guys were knocking down 8.80s at 3200 lb with a g-force 4speed. Just wondering how much of an advancement cylinder heads and technology for the FE has come and how easy is it to make that kind of power now.

Ok, now what kind of power do you think can be made at 430-450 cubic inches. All out race motor for NSS on the east coast?

I've done two 439 cube high risers that are 2+ hp per cube, closer to 9000 rpm than 8000, with mandated 715 cfm carbs and mandated dome pistons, both of which hold back potential power.  It is EXpensive to do it, but 450 inches done the right way, with no rules, could make 1000 hp.   Low budget on something like that would be +/-  $50K.

[57 lima bean]

Travis,is your Galaxie going on a diet or is this a new toy coming together? 

[TravisRice]

Thanks for the input. I know back 12 years or so ago that some of the Pro-nostalgia FE'S were making 830ish with Kuntz Edelbrock heads and 430 ish cubic inches. Now these were 8000 rpm + engines also. Those guys were knocking down 8.80s at 3200 lb with a g-force 4speed. Just wondering how much of an advancement cylinder heads and technology for the FE has come and how easy is it to make that kind of power now.

Ok, now what kind of power do you think can be made at 430-450 cubic inches. All out race motor for NSS on the east coast?

I've done two 439 cube high risers that are 2+ hp per cube, closer to 9000 rpm than 8000, with mandated 715 cfm carbs and mandated dome pistons, both of which hold back potential power.  It is EXpensive to do it, but 450 inches done the right way, with no rules, could make 1000 hp.   Low budget on something like that would be +/-  $50K.

Blair, thanks for the straight up answer. A friend of mine was looking to get back into Nostalgia Superstock racing last year. He looked at Paul Adams car and I am now positive that just might have been the deal of the century if you were 100% dedicated to just run that class. Last I saw that car advertised was for 65k turn key....... makes your point all the more valid. I am sure BES was proud to have thier name associated with that package. My same friend has been kicking the idea around of building an engine capable of putting my car into the 8.80-8.70 field. I feel pretty confident I could get the car in the 3300 range but just needed to know which route to take as far as putting a budget together to get there. I basically have told him I'll help him out as much as I can, I have offered my car if he wants to use it as my plans and direction have changed in the last year and a half. I've had it for sale off and on but little to no interest shown in a potential buyer. I did have one interested party last november, had the car wet sanded and buffed as well as the fiberglass bumpers chromed as part of the deal but he backed out after I did my part.

Thanks
Travis
 

[cjshaker]

I've done two 439 cube high risers that are 2+ hp per cube, closer to 9000 rpm than 8000, with mandated 715 cfm carbs and mandated dome pistons,...

880+hp at 8500+ RPMs with a 715 cfm carb.
Just once, I'd like to be a fly on the wall during one of those engine builds.

[HolmanMoodyStroppeGang]

You have excellent ideas here and a roadmap, you might look at Mike C's build for some specific ideas.   He is a real nice guy and a racer so he laid his combo out for FE guys piece by piece.   One of Paul Adam's sectioned and welded Tunnel Wedge OE intakes is a nice part of his build.  Maybe look up Dennis King's build.  I was asked to share some of the internals. The goal there was 1,000 HP and some interesting tricks got used.  Edelbrock full CNC Kuntz/Colvert heads were key, and they have tricks inside, valve relocation and so on.  The Edelbrock guys were in the loop and a purpose built intake was worked into the head, cam,bore,compression equation.   That build also changed some things like the firing order and more tricks.

At this point I would say, if you use only the best stuff, and get the best guys providing it all, and build a car that will take the power, hook, and move,,,well,,,you can spend over 100,000 and maybe as many hours....

And if you then have to sell the car, well, seeing a world class Hot Rod like Paul Adams for sale for so long at a great price doesn't make a lot of sense to some of us.  Similar Hot Rods are around in the 40,000 plus range if you shop patiently.

Chasing the big number is awesome, love it. But if you have some Rat or Dodge to beat and want to do it less expensively, I have to toss out blowers on a HP per dollar line of reasoning

I logged on because you can spend close to 50,000 getting all of the best stuff, or, use less inches and a Pro Charger or a Roots blower for a lot less money.

Shucks, you can use an iron 428 block and heads, good crank and rods and made a bunch of power with 30 lbs of boost and race gas

Example 1, Shelby had me, Isky, Arias and friends over to see a 452 aluminum build on the dyno, with one centrifugal blower on it, basic USA style strong crank and rods, good fuel and we saw over 1,500 HP easy.  That was in dependable not full kill mode//tune too.  The engine went into a race COBRA. It pulled way over 1,500 HP and we were asked to keep that number quiet.

I'd agree with guys like JAY shooting for 2,000 on gas with a big SOHC

So I think I see that you want to get to the ultimate power range for carbs on an FE, which is generally over 900 and pushing toward 1,000 HP from what we see.  For half the money or less, you might look in to force feeding it old school

Blowers flat work on pushrod engines and we had a saying a Holman Moody Stroppe. ''If all else fails, put a blower on it''.

Most older guys would then point to FORD hanging a Paxton blower on a 57 312 T Bird and say,,they were FAST !.  They were fun to leg out, no doubt.  Then,those cars got tweaked to really run with Hot Rod tricks. .  Remember those Birds went out to Bonneville and punched their way in to the 200 MPH Club pretty fast,,,   Add race gas, a cam, more jet, more blower over drive and they'd scoot.

Some people also forget that guys like Ak Miller/Gus Davis/Stroppe then Gale Banks did hundreds of very reliable blown FE's. Perfectly streetable in many cases. Many ran well on pump gas too.

I was lucky to get to help Dyno twin blown big blocks at Stroppe for and with the genius engineer Gale Banks.  We pulled 1,100 ft lbs of torque in a manner that could live all day in an endurance setting.  And at only 468 cubes and with no inter cooling and one blow through Holley 4 V. One 850 DP with tricks (and no 4 corner idle circuits,,,he hee)

I have a book we all helped on, I should re release it.  It is called how to Supercharger an FE   By Ak Miller

He and us and friends came up with a perfectly reliable and fast 1 turbo then 2 turbo system for FE's that used a lot of stock internals, but made nice, broad power for very reliable street use.

We did a lot of F250s that way, and many non shock tower door cars.   It was hilarious to leg a f250 that could smoke the tires as long as you wanted and blow the doors off a lot of Sports Cars and so on.   Those blown FE trucks ruined a lot of Porche guys day and ego back when. Just cracked us up to beat a super car with a truck.

I just wanted to throw out supercharger as a cost effective, fast and fun path to power too.

When you study blown combos, there is a sharp line to ponder too. Are we married to a steel Crower or Carillo style rod because we plan some street heat, or a boat use, and endurance type design, or, can we use a fat tough forged aluminum rod that Fuelers trust to 8-9-10,000 Horsepower.  I have worked on blown or injected fuel stuff for decades and having a pinned rod insert, wide throw, and a smaller diameter rod journal is key. I don't think the best steel rods around would survive the burnout alone on a blown fuel car, but they made over 1500 ft lbs of torque with a SHELBY block and heads Summer before last. So an FE with steel rods and a lot of boost is practical, given state of the art fuel delivery, boost regulation and intercooling, but cheaper, easier quarter mile power is often easier with aluminum rods.

I hope more guys think through how fast a blown alcohol FE can be too.  These combos are so easy on parts, can run for seasons with out huge expense, and make big big power.  Look at the Nostalgia Blown Gassers out there changed over to alky.

After a long drought, it have been wonderful to see the big 3 design, perfect and sell so many fast new Hot Rods with blowers and turbos for a lot of us.  So if Detroit came back around to boost, big time, it seems more Hot Rodders are doing this too.

Out here in California we have a lot of Hot Rodders who drive stuff all year and not on Sunday necessarily.  Could be the weather or fun factor, who knows. What is common is to see blown cars running down the Coast Route 1 at least once a day somewhere, and more often on special days. And guess what? I have seen a hundred Ferrari's, Tuner porschee's, Lambos, Modified Bmers, and brand new BMW's.Merecedes and AUDI's on the side of the road, broken, or on a flatbed truck headed back for an expensive massage. But in all my years I have never seen one blown Hot Rod stuck on any road anywhere out here ?  Why?  A roots blown big block is really reliable if simply tuned right and maintained. AND, such Hot Rods usually have an owner who keeps all of the little things happy and serviced.  Hot Rodders usually take great care of their ride and it shows.

I am going to use the latest SHELBY Mustang all tuned up super Snake style as my last example.  They are sneaking around town at around 1,000 HP on pump premium....of course you are intercooled and have very precise EFI and detonation sensors and so on.

What is hilarious is how many super car guys are getting a nice tail whoop-in by them.

And what is really funny is, so many Porche's are getting beat by Mustangs, Camaros, Dodge HEMIS and so on, there is a really big 'tuner Porche' gang growing out here. One of our former big shops is now strictly Tuner Porsche's.   Rich guys adding more blower, cubes, and so on to keep up. And it is a good business because they blow them up a lot. My neighbor grenaded his in about 20 hours of legging it. Spit rods and everything.

Maybe kick it around pal. Boost. Old guys pushed 390s, 406s then 427s, usually stroked,but pretty stock, into the 8s then 7s in the 60s on gas with a 6-71, and they were not even stripped blowers, just fit tight.

Thanks

PS; Thanks Jay for running the best FE Forum on the net. Smart, logical,productive, fair, rules based, well moderated and polite.

[XR7]

Tom... you need to read before you post. See post #5 where he says "for NSS on the East Coast". They have rules... blowers, nitrous, etc. aren't allowed. N/A only. You could have saved all your valuable time it took to write up your "essay".